Stations ... why?

[Talltim]

Top secret? Building a model of Box Tunnel?

[cromptonnut]

No, it's just "under development" and as it's his project it's his place to post about it, not mine There are similarities in our problems as well as potential solutions and we were just bouncing ideas off of each other, that's all.

 

All will be revealed by SG in due course - and quite how Z gauge live diesel run with on board miniature diesel engines and radio control with DCC sound and automatic uncoupling is going to be received by the world I'm not sure.

 

Here's an early prototype https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9zt3SF_Flc

[Colin_McLeod]

 

To me the biggest waste of space is the fiddle yard. The station is where most things happen-trains stop, terminate, reverse, change loco's, pass each other and so on. Generally loco sheds and goods yards are near stations. You can model part of a station but the FY has to hold your longest train.

 

The typical roundy has a station on one side and a FY on t'other. Why?

 

Ed

My solution was to have my station on one side, main line in countryside on the other and the fiddle yard 7 inches below the station. This means gradients on the sidings approach tracks but it also gives me a junction where this joins with the main line.

[cromptonnut]

My solution was to have my station on one side, main line in countryside on the other and the fiddle yard 7 inches below the station. This means gradients on the sidings approach tracks but it also gives me a junction where this joins with the main line.

 

This is a solution I am also considering although with my desire to build the layout as portable does make this a little more complex than it perhaps need be - but not impossible.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I'm building 00 in a space approximately 8'6" square. Trains will be up to 6 coaches, but generally 4 or 5 which was quite common on secondary routes. the station goes round one corner on a curve which transitions down to a nominal 36" radius on the outer track. That is sufficient to give me platforms 6' long between ramp tops. The back platform loop which also accesses sidings is 30' radius at the tightest. It can take a loco and about 18 wagons. The third side of the layout has a junction from a single line branch. The fourth side has hidden loops in front of which is a plank siding with a factory loading bay. That still leaves me with an operating space over 4' square in the middle, with library, tools and materials, stock storage and controls underneath the boards.

[Satan's Goldfish]

A horrific picture to illustrate part of one of mine and Nut's discussions that doesn't divulge anything i don't want to yet divulge of my own projects!

 

Station and throat at 1 end of the scenic area dissapearing under a bridge as the start of the spread of points for the fiddle yard. At the opposite end is a double junction to start spreading the width for the fiddle yard at that end too. In a space limited environment getting some of the fiddle yard point work on scene can save space. incoroprating a freight facility into it creates some on scene operations for the operator to play with, as well as complex signalling at the junction and station throat.

 

In the below picture it's envisaged that 1 line from the junction is a longer distance mainline and the inner line caters more for commuter services. Thus at the station end of the fiddle yard it forces all stopper/commuter trains to use the platforms, and longer distance trains and freights can use the 'fast lines' to the side. An alternative is to make the station much larger and omit the bypass lines so all tracks pass through platforms then both tracks at the junction can handle similar trains. this will also create some interesting 'crossing' moves in the station throat and create the illusion of another off scene junction at the far end of the station.

 

 

The picture is for representative purposes only! Yes there's a lot of limitation on storage roads there before anyone mentions it and the station throat design probably isn't the most efficient.

[cromptonnut]

Plenty of food for thought there, thanks SG.

 

Just not sure how quite I'm going to manage all that in the space I have, especially if I'm going to go for two levels.  I've tried a basic version earlier of what you've got above, and discovered I had room for platform - 2 tracks - island platform - 2 tracks - platform in the space I have on a corner, which isn't enough so I'd need to swing it round somewhat or make the corners wider, unfortunately I'm as good as you in width but not so good in length.

 

Boris need not respond to that last comment...

[Satan's Goldfish]

Remind me, what were the max layout dimensions and max individual board dimensions, and possible on scene items of operational interest? I may have an idea...... is 360 scenic view an option?...

[cromptonnut]

Remind me, what were the max layout dimensions and max individual board dimensions, and possible on scene items of operational interest? I may have an idea...... is 360 scenic view an option?...

14ft x 8ft room, door bottom left corner.  Max 2ft board width but one side preferably 18".  4ft x 2ft boards max for convenience and handling.  Station, fiddle yard (off scene, I guess), post office loading bay (could be part of station, in the style of Redhill), and some sort of stone terminal which could be like the one at Purley (being urban) rather than a quarry in the countryside Meldon style.  Some loco/DMU storage would be nice but not essential (even a couple of bay platforms would be sufficient).

 

360 view is possible but remember that for home use viewing would be from the inside, whereas for exhibition use viewing would be from the outside so possibly no backscene or only removeable ones on the inside for when at home use.

 

Two level is possible, in the style of the Star Lane layout (I thought perhaps doing the south side of Merstham tunnels where the main line goes through Merstham station and the Quarry Line bypasses to the east on a slightly different elevation - which also gives potential for Holmethorpe Sidings).

 

Always happy to entertain ideas - I often find what I want by taking parts of three or four ideas.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Leave it with me, I'll be back......

 

(Can see a few items there I have past solutions for)

[cromptonnut]

One of the biggest problems I'm having is not wanting setrack curves on the visible portions of the layout - ideally the 36" modular minimum radius would be great but I'm happy to go down to 30.

[t-b-g]

Having tried and failed, I am not sure that multi level layouts in small spaces work very well. They usually end up having steep gradients on curves and haulage of long trains can become a problem. Then you have access to the lower level to sort out. So I gave up, although others have probably managed it better than I did.

 

Out of all the layouts I have been involved with, either mine or those that I have operated, I am firmly of the opinion that a terminus gives the most interesting potential for operation. In order to have the opportunity to run trains that do not have handling facilities at the terminus, how about having a freight line that goes on beyond the terminus. It could be an industrial line, giving the opportunity to take one loco off and replace it with an industrial shunter, or the main line loco could stay on. Frank Dyer did this to very good effect on his Borchester layouts with their colliery branches.

 

In a 14' space, a terminus with, say, 8' platforms and a 6' approach (which would presumably curve round the room) is a realistic prospect.

 

A lot depends on how the layout operator/owner wants to see their trains running. A terminus is not a lot of use for a "watching the trains go by" type, for which I would see if a simple circuit with hidden sidings down one side but with a scenic track running along the front of the hidden sidings to give a scenic view all the way round, with junctions taking the tracks off to the fiddle yard at each end.

 

A friend of mine did design a layout that was a circuit with a station and no fiddle yard. The station had a loco shed, a goods yard and some carriage sidings. A pilot loco would collect stock and put it in the platform. A big loco would back on and take it round and then it would be shunted back to the carriage sidings. Not prototypical but all the stock is visible all the time, instead of being hidden away and it would have been quite interesting to run if it had ever been completed..

[Colin_McLeod]

........ and it would have been quite interesting to run if it had ever been completed..

The story of most of my layouts!

[Satan's Goldfish]

This is where 'Exford Park' was a superb layout, junction, station, mainline, seperate TMD. It was a joy (and honour) to be allowed to operate.

[Andy Hayter]

Back to the original question;  why have a station?

 

I think it provides a legitimate reason to stop your trains and admire them in detail - something that is rather more difficult when they are on the move.  Certainly a station is not essential, and other scenarios can be developed with the same end resort.  For the loco collector the shed fulfills the same purpose. 

 

For those however who prefer operations (running trains), then open track and  no station seems legitimate - ditto the shunter and his inglenook (or more complex) shunting layout.  A different sort of operations, where admiring the individual items of stock is of lesser importance than the operations.

 

 

Sorry if that is all a bit philosophical.

[cromptonnut]

Not philosophical at all, Andy ... as you correctly surmise, we all want different things from our layouts which is why some people come away satisfied and others disappointed from the same exhibition.  What works for me may not work for you, and vice versa.  I like things "going past at speed" which is how I remember them at Chard Junction in my youth, although some trains were held in the loop and had a spirited start too - and of course the platform ending at Exeter St Davids in later years.

 

You are right that there are many different ways of reaching the same result with whatever type of layout we enjoy ... and that's the joy of this forum, being able to discuss things with others facing similar problems to find mutually beneficial solutions and pinch each other's ideas

[Satan's Goldfish]

A plan is coming together that ticks your boxes bud, I haven't forgotten! Is there a possible reduced train length? Like I mentioned in PM of splitting PGA rake into 2? (Might help with shunting your stone sidings too!)

[cromptonnut]

Ideally I'd like to run pairs of 4-CEP units (so that's the length of 8 mk 1's) but anything else is up for discussion.

 

Re the stone train, the real one at Purley comes in and reverses into a long siding where it drops half the wagons, takes half through the unloader, then runs round and pulls that set into the third siding, pulling the second set through the unloader and dropping the wagons, then going through the middle siding to reverse and pick up part 1, pull forward, reverse to collect part 2 then draw out onto the main line when ready to depart.  Zooming in here on satellite view may give an idea of what I'm talking about https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3375112,-0.1132595,246m/data=!3m1!1e3 - the grey shed adjacent to Warren Road is the unloading shed and you can see the conveyor belt to take the contents up to the unloading bins.

[Satan's Goldfish]

You don't half make planning tough Nut!

 

Ok, hopefully this might give you ideas, it's not a 100% complete item but you get the idea. It is based around a max train length of 8 mk1s which i think roughs out at about 7ft. Fine for your 2 pairs of CEPs, Stone Trains need to be 6ft of wagons plus Loco which can be split into 2x 3ft wagon lengths.

 

I'm not 100% convinced it will fit in your base board sizes, you may need to be flexible on your board module sizes to keep everything in I'vThe e marked 2ft wide boards on the plan and the track crosses the boundaries in a few places.

 

From an exhibition stand point it is 360 viewing. The side with the fiddle yard has it's removable back scene just 6 inches in from the edge and the track here is imagined to be running along the top of arches with lock-ups underneath. 8 track fiddle yard takes up the rest of this side and should fit on 18 inch wide boards with the far track beneath the lines on arches. At home and operating from the middle this puts your fiddle yard at a lower level than the scenic mainline at the back.

 

I'm guessing this is due to be third rail country style. Only part that isn't third rail is the stone sidings, head shunt, and freight loop. Stone trains need to split into half to fit into the sidings.

 

The basic plan is a folded figure 8, scenically it's supposed to look like 4 tracks leaving the half hidden station hence marking some of the lines as closed for maintenance however you could use these if you wanted. The freight line crossing the mainlines is just an operational quirk I've always wanted to incorporate somehow!

 

For your Bay platform, parcels, and carriage sidings wish there are a pair of bays in the middle of 1 of the platforms with stabling sidings facing them. Operationally this makes it easier to 'turn trains around' between the bays or sidings without fouling running lines.

 

 

 

 

Hope that helps bud and provides some inspiration. As previously mentioned there's the extra junction on the right and station on the left to help spread the tracks for the fiddle yard and keep point work on scene rather than hidden. The gradients to get up for the arches and clear the fiddle yard should be easy enough for 'modern image' stock to handle.

 

SG

[cromptonnut]

Hi SG, thanks for your work there. 

 

A couple of points:

 

1) Bottom left - no room for the door to open or close - there would be a removable section there anyway.  Leading me nicely into point 2.

 

2) Rather than 2 tracks on a "viaduct" above the fiddle yard, how about making a station up there instead a bit like the relationship Exeter St Davids/Exeter Central, and having the stone terminal Purley-style in a similar way to the old Blue Circle cement sidings at Exeter Central?  This would also allow tracks on a bridge over the road/station as a scenic break over the lower level station (Horley, or Exeter Central style) and an opportunity for an additional tunnel and tight hidden curves again Exeter style - post depot opportunity where the lower level stone terminal currently is.  As the real Exeter Bank is 1:37 that should work quite nicely   This video explains it well if you aren't familiar with the prototype.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2r63mbSerg

 

3) As above but rather than the stone terminal on the upper level station, move the Royal Mail depot up there.

 

4) If I kept the parcels bays as your plan (which is quite possible) I'd probably add a goods loop there, somehow - or a long headshunt so parcels trains can draw into there and reverse/shunt into the sidings.

 

Is that an XtrackCAD file?  If so, could you post it so I can 'play' rather than redraw?

 

Thanks

[Satan's Goldfish]

Hi Nut,

 

yes it's xtrak, I'll send you the file next time I turn the laptop on.

 

The main reason I kept the line on simple arches was to maintain easy access to the fiddle yard. I like the idea of a simple station on that line though, gives it a purpose to head off the way it does. If you did want to add one of the scenic items up there, I'd go with the parcels as the sorting office can be low relief on the back scene and maintain a lot of your fiddle yard accessibility, the stone terminal would probably end up covering all your fiddle yard.

 

The head shunt can curve following the mainline up the gradient to clear space for the door (I was just being lazy drawing it straight). If another smaller station were to be added at the top of the gradient, the 'headshunt' could follow all the way up as a freight loop with a trailing point onto the mainline just before the station up there. This trailing connection may be useful for the parcels stock shunting too, why clog the layout with 2 headshunts when you can use 1 in 2 orientations instead as well as a freight stabling/bypass loop!

[cromptonnut]

Thanks

 

Of course, the "small upper station" option also has St James Park or St Thomas' Halt which are nothing more than 3 carriage platforms on plain straight track.  Not sure I fancy modelling a home game at St James though with 8500 little Preiser people...

[Satan's Goldfish]

Thanks

 

Of course, the "small upper station" option also has St James Park or St Thomas' Halt which are nothing more than 3 carriage platforms on plain straight track.  Not sure I fancy modelling a home game at St James though with 8500 little Preiser people...

May I suggest stretch to 4 coach to hold a single CEP? Unless there's other stock you have that is just 2 or 3 carriages long that you haven't mentioned! What's the quantity of mail/parcels that needs accomodating?

[cromptonnut]

May I suggest stretch to 4 coach to hold a single CEP? Unless there's other stock you have that is just 2 or 3 carriages long that you haven't mentioned! What's the quantity of mail/parcels that needs accomodating?

 

Can make it a CEP, plenty of space.  Other stock includes a 150, 153, 158 and 159 plus some Lima 117s - and of course expresses that go straight past is just as useful.

 

Parcels stock, I think I've got about 6 or 7 somewhere between the various boxes of cr stock I've accumulated over the years.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Can make it a CEP, plenty of space.  Other stock includes a 150, 153, 158 and 159 plus some Lima 117s - and of course expresses that go straight past is just as useful.

 

Parcels stock, I think I've got about 6 or 7 somewhere between the various boxes of cr stock I've accumulated over the years.

Wow, that's a lot of DMUs!

 

On the parcels front then, either use the bays In the station, or if you want to add the simple station have the station at the top of the curve, trailing point in from the extended head shunt just before the platform, trailing crossover at the other end of the platform, and a trailing spur on the opposite line at the far end of the platforms ('inside' line of the layout) to create a long siding for parcels stock outside the sorting office. Fit sorting office as low relief to the back scene so it's only there when the back scene is on.

 

Operationally, this makes it easier for 'clockwise' trains to access the stone terminal and 'anti-clockwise' trains to access the parcels platform. Trains running in the opposite directions to this can be shunted via the headshunt to access the various terminals...... I'll revise the plan to reflect this before I send it to you!