Stations ... why?

[Guest]

I do very much like the idea of fiddle yard automation that you hit upon earlier, but in my case as a simple solution for variety of traffic when I slip into "lazy, just wanna watch trains roll by" mode. I didn't feel the need to model the station itself on the West Croydon layout, but with hindsight, it was a missed opportunity. A simple through station with little or no approach pointwork would also have satisfied me. There is obviously no real need to model a station but I do feel drawn to them. Perhaps I like the cameo possibilities... a Brute trolley or two, a passenger leaning up against a wall etc etc. Maybe the answer is to model just the platform ends, so the whole layout is not all station? Planning can be an absolute nightmare and in all honesty I don't think you'll ever totally iron out the "compromise" factor. I do still firmly believe that you reach a point where you just have to build something, even if it means making alterations during the build. Good luck.

[roundhouse]

Now if only I had won the lottery (big time, not that I ever have since) before they pulled down the the Victorian warehouse adjoining our garden boundary I could have modelled the Brighton mainline to near scale and had room for a few more layouts plus a mezzanine bar area

[BG John]

I'm currently building a Timesaver shunting puzzle, and to add interest without taking up more space, I've got a short platform to take a railbus or railcar on one of the headshunts. The layout ends under a road overbridge, so it will appear that it's the end of a long platform with most of the station on the other side of the bridge. I've also added a junction, so passenger trains can arrive on one line and leave on the other. It's still a station though, but a model of the goods yard rather than all of it.

 

I think a station, or some sort of goods facility where plenty of action can take place, is the best option for those of us who aren't avid collectors of all the RTR products that are available. It can be interesting to operate with a couple of locos and a small amount of rolling stock, while a layout with no station would probably be pretty boring without a procession of different trains. For my interests there is very little available RTR anyway, so without a lottery win big enough to pay someone to build far more locos and stock than I could manage, not having a station would be pretty dull.

[edcayton]

To me the biggest waste of space is the fiddle yard. The station is where most things happen-trains stop, terminate, reverse, change loco's, pass each other and so on. Generally loco sheds and goods yards are near stations. You can model part of a station but the FY has to hold your longest train.

 

The typical roundy has a station on one side and a FY on t'other. Why? Have the station on one side by all means, but allow it to hold all trains. You can then model plain track on the other and watch your trains running through the countryside (or industry if you prefer).

 

The layout I am planning will, due to the shape of the room, consist of an oval with a branch off to one side. It is my intention to have this branch as a "fiddle station" (thanks to Iain Rice for that). This will be a scenic terminus with minimal facilities. This will feed onto the oval which will have a station which can reverse trains and send them back to the terminus. I am looking at ways of modelling just a part of the reversing station. This may involve bridges with buses thereon!

 

Ed

[ThePurplePrimer]

A fiddle station ?

[edcayton]

A fiddle station ?

 

Yup. Anything from a large station with goods yards, carriage sidings, loco shed etc that can take all your stock down to what I am planning. This is just a fan of parallel dead-end sidings but with an island platform between two of them. It will to some extent resemble Ilfracombe (which always looked unreal to me). All incoming trains will have to be either hauled out by a different loco or shunted by a station pilot, all of which adds to the "play value", or I hope it will.

 

It just seems such a shame to me to have half the railway hidden. For me at home I know it is, and at exhibitions you will see people straining to see round curtains etc to see the "hidden" sidings.

 

Ed

[BG John]

A fiddle yard is supposed to represent the rest of the railway system, so can be looked on as a space saver! Imagine how much space you'd need to model everything your layout would actually be connect to. Unless it's something small like a branch line or light railway, where it would be more practical to model both ends.

 

As well as my Timesaver, I'm currently working on several "half stations", where I'm just modelling the platform and sidings, and the station throat and almost all the pointwork is represented by the fiddle yard. That's a real space, and time, saver.

[Titan]

I like the term fiddle station!  In fact the more I think about it mine really is more of a fiddle yard disguised as a station, as it is where most of my passenger stock gets stored whilst waiting its next turn of duty. I do also have another station which is more for scenic interest rather than operational need however:

 

[DCB]

The "Fiddle' station is one of my pet hates. Quite often modellers come up with a huge multi platform station bigger than anything the GWR had apart from Paddington and stuff it with essentially immobile trains.

 

A layout I operate sometimes has all its fiddle provision below scenic areas leaving the whole layout surface as scenic,, which does make excessive fiddling challenging,

 

My uncompleted loft layout has a very simple through station and a marshalling yard and MPD adjacent. The station representing one on the outskirts of a large town maybe a mile from the main station, Only local trains stop here while expresses and ECS pass through, The yard serves as a point for remarshalling goods trains, changing locos from ER to LMR power and to service terminating LMR passenger locos. The basis of the concept and its achilles heel is the hidden loop and triangular junctions which allow all trains to exit the loop in either direction. I can't make the concept work.  All details work, not the concept.

 

However even the simplest station can give lots of fun, just two crossovers and you can reverse a passenger train or allow a passenger to overtake a goods by setting back onto the other line, even allow a fast goods to overtake a  slow one or  a slow good to overtake a fast one (It happened see Firing Days at Saltley by P. Johnson)  

 

A steam age station won't look right with lots of random trains.  Lots waiting to depart is, rush hour, excursions etc, but lots of arrivals waiting to be removed is unlikely.

 

Another thing to consider is many stations spanned roads and rivers, were part in cutting and part on embankment, many were on curves, none in my experience are ever straight and level except brand new ones.  And most stations have their platforms at Road level with level access while most models have steps up.  Just these details can allow a station to be fitted in and a station does allow lots of different viewing angles and the chance to stop and restart trains.

 

As does a random stop signal on plain track.  Oh well...

[Talltim]

Yup. Anything from a large station with goods yards, carriage sidings, loco shed etc that can take all your stock down to what I am planning. This is just a fan of parallel dead-end sidings but with an island platform between two of them. It will to some extent resemble Ilfracombe (which always looked unreal to me). All incoming trains will have to be either hauled out by a different loco or shunted by a station pilot, all of which adds to the "play value", or I hope it will.

 

It just seems such a shame to me to have half the railway hidden. For me at home I know it is, and at exhibitions you will see people straining to see round curtains etc to see the "hidden" sidings.

 

Ed

A lot of US layouts have scenic 'staging' (or no staging at all, trains running from one location to another)

[number6]

Quite often modellers come up with a huge multi platform station bigger than anything the GWR had apart from Paddington and stuff it with essentially immobile trains.

 

 

Seems to be quite a consensus on the approach to a station or the first stop out from a terminus or bigger station being a good subject to model. As wonderful as Paddington was/is I would rather be at Royal Oak, passing under the engine and carriage bridge and accelerating past Old Oak and on to where the West London drops down. The variety of stock locos and movements to have been seen in those few miles compared to what was going on at Paddington would hold my interest much more. 

 

I like the US concept of staging rather than fiddle yards for a home layout - and a semi scenic staging is also a clever conceit. Perhaps the fiddle yard is more suitable for exhibiting as more of a theatrical show is being put on. Certainly this is the case then the operators at many exhibition have the worse view of the layout or are always peering over a backscene. On a home layout I would suggest you want to be the audience and not just  operator. Who cares if you want to run the same train around again or repeat some satisfying bit of operation? 

[roundhouse]

A lot of US layouts have scenic 'staging' (or no staging at all, trains running from one location to another)

 

 

Much as per Freemo set ups aswell.

[Pete the Elaner]

The typical roundy has a station on one side and a FY on t'other. Why? Have the station on one side by all means, but allow it to hold all trains.

The FY allows a variety of trains. You can't hold the express, semi fast & local all at the same time. You can hardly stop a freight train at the platform for passengers to arrive & depart.

It really does depend on what you want to re-create. I am modelling a real location on the WCML because I want to run WCML trains. The only stations which could hold these are places like Euston, New St, Crewe, Preston etc. These are all way too big so I need something else & this means a fiddle yard.

 

As for the original question, there are already several good answers:

 

Trains are usually seen at stations. If we see them outside of stations, there is often little around them to model.

Stations are a focal point for activity. Where I grew up, villages with a station are larger than those without. A double track line which passes through fields will have less activity than a station used by passengers & possibly goods.

The platforms & buildings are something which need to be created.

 

Old fashioned stations with their small goods yards are almost gone now. I am sure there are a few people could name but these are very much the exception. Modern goods yards are huge & usually away from stations. This pulls us back to a station again.

 

I remember starting a stationless layout at a club in the 80's. Most of the other club members were a bit shocked at the idea of this.

[cromptonnut]

Glad to see some interesting comments and nice to know that, generally, I'm not alone in this dilemma although nobody has yet found the perfect solution.

 

One thing that did spring to mind earlier was the stone terminal at Purley - which is adjacent to a station in a fairly urban area.  That may prove to be a solution to my wanting a stone terminal near a station.

 

Some sketching is required.

[Zomboid]

Stone terminals at stations are plentiful around the south. There's also Woking and Fareham, and there's something like that at Botley as well if you want it to go with a station that has a bridge half way along the platforms.

(Andover would also be good if the up side sidings were in regular use, though that's clearly not stone).

Actually, Botley strikes me as very modelgenic now I think of it.

[newbryford]

To me the biggest waste of space is the fiddle yard. The station is where most things happen-trains stop, terminate, reverse, change loco's, pass each other and so on. Generally loco sheds and goods yards are near stations. You can model part of a station but the FY has to hold your longest train.

 

The typical roundy has a station on one side and a FY on t'other. Why? Have the station on one side by all means, but allow it to hold all trains. You can then model plain track on the other and watch your trains running through the countryside (or industry if you prefer).

 

The layout I am planning will, due to the shape of the room, consist of an oval with a branch off to one side. It is my intention to have this branch as a "fiddle station" (thanks to Iain Rice for that). This will be a scenic terminus with minimal facilities. This will feed onto the oval which will have a station which can reverse trains and send them back to the terminus. I am looking at ways of modelling just a part of the reversing station. This may involve bridges with buses thereon!

 

Ed

 

It's quite rare that a station would be completely full with trains. On a typical exhibition layout, there is often a need for many trains to be stored efficiently and the only way is a fiddle/storage yard.

 

New Bryford is a 4-platform through station - there can be up to 20 trains available to run at a normal exhibition. Likewise, Blackmill was three platforms, but we often had call on over 25 trains due to the end storage (and reversing) yards.

I'd need the likes of Waterloo station to store that lot!

Cheers,

Mick

[The Bigbee Line]

I've always thought a layout based on cross London freight working gives the modeler the opportunity to use locomotives from other regions.  For example i was looking for pictures of class 16's, having obtained a bargain Heljan model a while back, and came across pictures of them at Nunhead and Elephant and Castle.  Such a layout on the Southern region could feature the platform ends of a station peeping out from under an overbridge.  Third rail would be necessary and a passenger service by BILs, HALs or EPB's would suffice, the odd CEP passing through to give the semblance of reality.  Such a basis could be used as the scenic background to an 8 x 4 roundy, with multiple tracks allowing ones loco and wagon collection to get a run out.

Hither Green got a regular stream of loco's from other regions,  Feltham was I think the South Western Cross London exchange point.  Was it Norwood Junction for the Central Section?  Again the use of an overbridge can be used to give that scenic break.  Where's that large sheet of ply, damn it's been cut of for the O gauge..............

[runs as required]

A layout that always dazzled me was Hannem Central by the late Graham Jowett-Ives; it appeared in Railway Modeller shortly before his death. I could never quite grasp what went where, but all the action seemed centred on an interesting burrowing junction against a retaining wall (on top of which only brief glimpses could be had of what appeared to be a limitless all regions loco shed)

His videos of this junction location were quite mesmerising - seemingly in a modest conservatory with Radio 2 permanently on in the background.

 

OK steam age (which is my age) but the notion could easily be updated.

 

dh

[Guest]

One thing that did spring to mind earlier was the stone terminal at Purley - which is adjacent to a station in a fairly urban area.  That may prove to be a solution to my wanting a stone terminal near a station.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/actonwellsjunction/7966996634

 

Salfords springs to mind too, and has seen a variety of traffic over the years but you'll be well aware of that as you're local!. Less urban than Purley, modelling just part of the platforms would allow a variety of passenger traffic, with little of it stopping. Nice to have a few trains running unattended whilst you shunt the yard. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[br2975]

"There's nothing new under the sun"

.

Back in the 70's Don Rowland put forward the theory of the 'full frontal layout' - where there was no fiddle yard, only station(s), yard(s) and an MPD.

.

I'm sure someone still has the relevant edition of Model Railways.

.

Brian R

[steve1]

There's no such thing as the 'perfect solution' really. It's down to whatever suits the layout builder best.

 

steve

[Richard Lee]

When I did my larger (13' by 10' L-shaped) layout I thought about branch line terminus to fiddle yard, maybe with small passing station.  Trouble is, I was a bit nervous about regularly moving a lot of the nicer stuff to re-arrange trains by hand.  I ended up doing part of a junction station to branch line terminus.  On the whole, I am happy with the idea, although there are a couple of things that I might have done differently, including a a couple of small hidden sidings for through coaches.  On the other hand, I wasn't looking to get a huge amount of stock, so if you have a lot of stuff, you may need a lot of storage.

[DCB]

There were several modest stations and yards in the steam era where quite involved shunting and remarshalling took place.   My concept is to do 90% to 100% of the remarshalling on the visible part of the layout and store complete "Trains" in hidden sidings. Only occasional loco changes and reversals being needed off scene.  However the goods trains would be remarshalled every trip around the layout, whether getting a fitted head onto a fast freight, or sorting the pickup into station order.  As any train leaving the storage can run through the scenic part either clockwise or anticlockwise the pickup can return from where it went (Just the engine needs turning) and be resorted to give it a fitted head before departing as a fast freight, The fast freight can return and be sorted into station order to continue as a pick up.  The London fast freight can exchange wagons with the Liverpool to form a couple of unfitted freights, a transfer and a pickup.   With a pool of 50 wagons or so one can ring the changes so every freight looks the same yet looks different, rather like the real thing.    

Equally coal wagons can be sorted into station order one way and colliery order the other, more interesting in Private owner wagon days admittedly.

On the real railways pre 1940 there never was enough yard capacity for shunting.  Yard capacity was then greatly increased as traffic peaked in 1944 then dwindled until BR built brand new automated yards which were entirely unnecessary.  Now Kingmoor in 00 would be something

[Satan's Goldfish]

Nut, I've had my own ponder on a lot of the issues raised on this thread and came up with a plan. I'll PM shortly, it may help you.

[cromptonnut]

Thanks - some interesting (top secret) ideas in that PM which has given me some ideas and inspiration for some alternate ways of looking at what seems to be - if this thread is anything to go by - a more common problem than I'd thought.