Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

 

I would have thought that these saloons cropped up all over the place, either in use or returning home, or indeed running out light to pick a family up. So you could probably have one running around all the time!

 

Heres some instructions lifted from the Oban-Line.info website from the Caley 1915 timetable appendix:

 

EMPTY SALOON, FAMILY, AND OTHER SPECIAL PASSENGER CARRIAGES BY GOODS TRAINS.-Empty Saloons, Family Carriages, and other highly-finished Passenger Vehicles must not be conveyed by Goods Trains, as such Vehicles are unable to stand the buffeting inseparable from Goods Train shunting.

It may occasionally be necessary, however, under exceptional pressure, for Stations on the Callander and Oban Section to forward such Vehicles to Stirling by Mixed Trains and Irregular Goods Trains, but when this is done Brakesmen and Shunters must take care that Goods Wagons are not shunted against the Passenger Vehicles with too much force. The Vehicles must be transferred at Stirling to Passenger or Coaching Stock Trains as the circumstances may determine.

 

Andy G

 

 

Oban evidently got an influx of saloons from all over for the annual Games - there's a magnificent photo taken there in 1913 on the CRASSOC forum with a Midland D542 family carriage centre stage, as identified further down the thread. How would a Midland saloon get to Oban - the implication of this instruction is not via the NBR to Crianlarich - so straight on to the Caledonian at Carlisle? 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Compound2632

[Donw]

When I was editor of the Gauge 0 guild Gazette, Mike Vincent the Director the chairman of the Publications committee used to hire a saloon carriage to be attached to the trains of the Forest of Dean Railway and we would hold our annual meeting trundling up and down. Sandwiches would be provided at some point. It was a very civilised way to travel. We had the advantage probably not enjoyed by those in Edwardian days of managing to fit in the odd footplate ride during the day. Mike rate it as worth the expense as it guaranteed attendance at the meeting.

 

Don

[corneliuslundie]

"why was the G&SWR saloon working north"

That's easy. The G&SWR was a partner to the Midland for the Scottish traffic. The West Coast route was a rival.

Yes, Ian White and colleagues'  books on Brighton carriages are magnificent. I have just finished reading volume 1. There is hope of two more volumes covering the bogie vehicles, bot the first will not be until at least next year. 

Jonathan

[phil_sutters]

Theres also some very nice LNWR saloons. One in particular is very posh, being WCJS really and it has a clerestory roof and bogies (and I'm at least halfway through doing the drawing to cut it on the silhouette...) And typically I can't find an image online...

 

Andy G

There is a photo of a 57' LNWR saloon in G.M.Kichenside's Railway Carriage Album, along with one of the Duke of Sutherland's saloon and a LNWR invalid saloon in LMS colours. Further on there is one of a LNWR picnic saloon, which is shown in later life as a club carriage for members only.

[Compound2632]

"why was the G&SWR saloon working north"

That's easy. The G&SWR was a partner to the Midland for the Scottish traffic. The West Coast route was a rival.

Yes, Ian White and colleagues'  books on Brighton carriages are magnificent. I have just finished reading volume 1. There is hope of two more volumes covering the bogie vehicles, bot the first will not be until at least next year. 

Jonathan

 

Not so easy - yes of course the Midland's Scotch Expresses were in partnership with the G&SWR to Glasgow and Stranraer (for Ireland) and with the NBR to Edinburgh, Perth, Aberdeen, Fort William etc.; the question is, if the G&SWR saloon was working back to home territory, why did it leave St Pancras at the head of a Manchester express rather than a Scotch Express (which would be mostly composed of MSJS at this date - shortly before the formation of the separate M&SW and M&NB fleets of clerestory corridor carriages). Was it to be detached at Derby to then be used for a party heading north from somewhere in the Midlands? Was it going all the way to Manchester to then work north conveying a party from Lancashire to the west of Scotland attached to a Midland train (via Blackburn and Hellifield)? Or had it been hired for purely internal MIdland use?

[Compound2632]

There is a photo of a 57' LNWR saloon in G.M.Kichenside's Railway Carriage Album, along with one of the Duke of Sutherland's saloon and a LNWR invalid saloon in LMS colours. Further on there is one of a LNWR picnic saloon, which is shown in later life as a club carriage for members only.

 

I suspect all these rather grand bogie saloons might be a bit much for the WNR to handle! 6-wheelers will be more the thing. There are etched brass kits about - e.g. LRM for a L&Y family carriage or LNWR invalid saloon.

[corneliuslundie]

An interesting question, compound 6322. One other possibility is that the Scotch express was fully loaded and the Manchester train was not, so the saloon could be moved to Derby to be worked forward later. We shall never know. But all the evidence does show that saloons turned up all over the place, which is what Edwardian needs to know.

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

The parallel is probably hiring a "business jet", one of those 15 seater jobs, and the clientele were probabably the same: the super-rich.

 

Although, strangely, when we were on hols in Spain at Easter, there was an ordinary, definitely non-super-rich, family staying at the same hotel, who had indeed hired a private plane, but because it worked out cheaper than ordinary scheduled flights!

 

There were about ten of them, and the cost of tickets, plus an overnight stay at the airport in either direction, plus petrol and parking for two cars, worked out considerably more than hiring a plane and pilot for a half day in each direction, from an airfield that was on their doorstep.

 

K

[Edwardian]

The parallel is probably hiring a "business jet", one of those 15 seater jobs, and the clientele were probabably the same: the super-rich.

 

Although, strangely, when we were on hols in Spain at Easter, there was an ordinary, definitely non-super-rich, family staying at the same hotel, who had indeed hired a private plane, but because it worked out cheaper than ordinary scheduled flights!

 

There were about ten of them, and the cost of tickets, plus an overnight stay at the airport in either direction, plus petrol and parking for two cars, worked out considerably more than hiring a plane and pilot for a half day in each direction, from an airfield that was on their doorstep.

 

K

 

In a previous life, I used to Island-hop between courts in the Eastern Caribbean.  Sometimes the scheduled flights were inconvenient, and, rather than the client pay for my time hanging around, it was cheaper to have my own pilot and 'plane . These were not exactly Learjets, however, but little Prop 'planes that might seat no more than 9. They came with on-board catering in the form of an ice box.  On the way out I'd have a coke or water.  On the way back, if I'd won, I'd have the small bottle of Fizz!

 

Looking back, aspects of my past life from time to time appear to have been quite glamorous!  Hard even for me to imagine that now!

 

Let us not forget the Great Western.  G37 was a fun little clerestory family Saloon of 1892.  I note the servants are designated Third Class.  I imagine that Governesses and Companions travelled with the family, and Footmen, Ladies' Maids and Valets in the servants' compartment.  In the case of the G35, they would have shared the space with the luggage, so hence my preference for the G37!

[Compound2632]

In a previous life, I used to Island-hop between courts in the Eastern Caribbean.  Sometimes the scheduled flights were inconvenient, and, rather than the client pay for my time hanging around, it was cheaper to have my own pilot and 'plane . These were not exactly Learjets, however, but little Prop 'planes that might seat no more than 9. They came with on-board catering in the form of an ice box.  On the way out I'd have a coke or water.  On the way back, if I'd won, I'd have the small bottle of Fizz!

 

Looking back, aspects of my past life from time to time appear to have been quite glamorous!  Hard even for me to imagine that now!

 

Let us not forget the Great Western.  G37 was a fun little clerestory family Saloon of 1892.  I note the servants are designated Third Class.  I imagine that Governesses and Companions travelled with the family, and Footmen, Ladies' Maids and Valets in the servants' compartment.  In the case of the G35, they would have shared the space with the luggage, so hence my preference for the G37!

 

Does your Lordship wish to travel with your Lordship's servants or your Lordship's luggage? Either can be sent in advance but which will be more convenient? Reading the G37 text, which mentions that it seats 12 first and 6 third class passengers, I realise that the compartment off the side corridor, next to the loo, is the servants' compartment - it's only 5'6" between partitions. The one-off G35 saloon seats 10 non-smoking first class and 4 smoking in the compartment off the corridor - 6'6" between partitions - and I suppose 5 or 6 servants being given a rough ride on the bench seat at the end - not a high enough proportion of servants?

 

Midland Railway Summer 1903 timetable book (as previously cited): "Saloon, Family, and Invalid Carriages: ... can usually be provided on prior application, the minimum charges being four full first class and four full third class ordinary or tourist tickets, or fares equivalent thereto. Each passenger travelling must hold a ticket corresponding with the class of carriage used, and if the party in any case exceeds the number named above, an additional fare must be paid for each additional passenger." Not bad, considering that to reserve the exclusive use of a first class compartment required the purchase of a minimum of four first class tickets (six fares to reserve a third-class compartment). I suppose it must have been a profitable business but it does seem extravagant in terms of tons deadweight per passenger to say nothing of the empty mileage, maintenance and clerical costs involved. 

 

Still on saloons but drifting off a bit... I'm rather taken by the LNWR 4-coach sets of 42' radials built in 1884 - the centre two coaches of which were first class gentlemen's and ladies' saloons: the gentlemen's saloon is laid out rather like dining car at one end, then has a side-corridor section with smoking compartment and lavatory, while the ladies' carriage is more like a family carriage with a longitudinal chaise-longue seat and loose armchairs in the saloon and two more private compartments plus lavatory off the side-corridor.  

[Edwardian]

The Potts one is my favourite saloon. Every light railway should have one.

 

 

From the Colonel Stephens site.

 

I do love a coupé, especially a double-ended one.  I am sure that the West Norfolk would have had such a First Class coach upon opening, and I wonder if, by some strange survival, it might have been converted to a Directors' Saloon and, thus, remained in service well into the Twentieth Century?

 

You picture the ex-LSWR Royal Saloon, built for Queen Victoria c.1842, in later life on the Shropshire & Montgomery. The window shape is unmistakable.

 

Below is a later double-ended coupé.  In this case an ex-LSWR Coupé First of 1851, which also ended in Light Railway service, in this case the Kent & East Sussex.  According to Weddell, this, too, might have been a Royal coach, built for the use of the Queen's children. The picture, by H C Casserley  is reproduced in Weddell vol. 1.

 

I liked the idea of this for the WN.  You will note that the end doors have been sealed.  I think a similar arrangement for the West Norfolk; partitions removed completely in the WN's case, with entry via the centre doors, armchairs, tables and a drinks cabinet. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Edwardian

[Poggy1165]

If you were working in 7mm scale you could have a brass kit of that coach from Alphagraphix. If you fancy a 4mm version, it might be worth asking him if he could possibly shoot one down. I have to admit that I find it a very attractive little coach, and I wonder if I could justify having one in the 'miner's train' that I envisage. 

 

It's a funny thing, but as I grow older I find myself more and more drawn to older, smaller, "quainter" prototypes.

[Edwardian]

Does your Lordship wish to travel with your Lordship's servants or your Lordship's luggage? Either can be sent in advance but which will be more convenient? Reading the G37 text, which mentions that it seats 12 first and 6 third class passengers, I realise that the compartment off the side corridor, next to the loo, is the servants' compartment - it's only 5'6" between partitions. The one-off G35 saloon seats 10 non-smoking first class and 4 smoking in the compartment off the corridor - 6'6" between partitions - and I suppose 5 or 6 servants being given a rough ride on the bench seat at the end - not a high enough proportion of servants?

 

Midland Railway Summer 1903 timetable book (as previously cited): "Saloon, Family, and Invalid Carriages: ... can usually be provided on prior application, the minimum charges being four full first class and four full third class ordinary or tourist tickets, or fares equivalent thereto. Each passenger travelling must hold a ticket corresponding with the class of carriage used, and if the party in any case exceeds the number named above, an additional fare must be paid for each additional passenger." Not bad, considering that to reserve the exclusive use of a first class compartment required the purchase of a minimum of four first class tickets (six fares to reserve a third-class compartment). I suppose it must have been a profitable business but it does seem extravagant in terms of tons deadweight per passenger to say nothing of the empty mileage, maintenance and clerical costs involved. 

 

Still on saloons but drifting off a bit... I'm rather taken by the LNWR 4-coach sets of 42' radials built in 1884 - the centre two coaches of which were first class gentlemen's and ladies' saloons: the gentlemen's saloon is laid out rather like dining car at one end, then has a side-corridor section with smoking compartment and lavatory, while the ladies' carriage is more like a family carriage with a longitudinal chaise-longue seat and loose armchairs in the saloon and two more private compartments plus lavatory off the side-corridor.  

 

I was actually thinking of Mr and Mrs Stockbroker of Worthing or, say, Guilford, the little Stockbrokers, Jasper & Amelia, Miss Genteel-Poverty, their Governess, a Valet and Lady's Maid.  The Stockbrokers are conspicuous consumers, and have lots of luggage.

 

Lady Erstwhile usually travels Third Class, during quiet periods of the day, due to her admirable sense of thrift.  She usually enjoys a compartment to herself.  This is down to the intimidating effect of her natural hauteur. And not at all because she smells perpetually of horses.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Edwardian

[Donw]

Although the rich had a lot of servants I expect they only needed a few when travelling there were bound to be plenty wherever they were going to stay. It is was a summer residence I expect some would have been sent on ahead to get everything ready boosting what would have been a skeleton staff during the winter.

Don

[phil_sutters]

I note in the appendices to Michael Harris' GW Coaches 1890 - 1954 that a couple lots of 31' Third Saloons were built in the 1890s to diagrams G 19 & 20 totalling about 17 coaches. What would they have been used for. I see that I have noted that the G 20 lot were featured in MRC 3.67.although I no longer have that.

[Edwardian]

Although the rich had a lot of servants I expect they only needed a few when travelling there were bound to be plenty wherever they were going to stay. It is was a summer residence I expect some would have been sent on ahead to get everything ready boosting what would have been a skeleton staff during the winter.

Don

 

There would have been staff at whichever house they visited, or hotel.  They could be travelling between Town and Country Houses of their own.  As Don says, whichever was not lived in would have a skeleton staff.  The one to be lived in could have domestic servants sent on ahead, along with much luggage.

 

All you need on the train is your luggage for the journey and your personal servants, hence valet and lady's maid.  Possibly a footman, and coachman if taking one's coach, a groom in the horsebox if taking one's horses.  I expect that was becoming rarer, especially for long journeys or for visits to friends and family, who would maintain their own coaches.

 

I expect that many such journeys could be made in luggage composites if the family was not that grand or did not choose to run to the expense of a private coach. 

[Edwardian]

I note in the appendices to Michael Harris' GW Coaches 1890 - 1954 that a couple lots of 31' Third Saloons were built in the 1890s to diagrams G 19 & 20 totalling about 17 coaches. What would they have been used for. I see that I have noted that the G 20 lot were featured in MRC 3.67.although I no longer have that.

 

The G20 Third Saloon seems to have been built in relatively large numbers over several Lots.  48 G20s, according to Russell.  You can have one in 4mm using the Shire Scenes replacement brass sides for the Ratio GW 4-Wheel kit.  More recently, I don't know when, Shirescenes introduced a new version so that you can model the original configuration.

 

I have not considered this for CA, because my belief is that they were designed for day-trips and could be chartered to go to the races, say. Clearly, CA is more than a day excursion from GW territory.

 

If you consider the internal layout, they have loos but no luggage space.  Also, I suspect your party could book half a Saloon, there being two saloons per coach, if your party was not large enough to fill both.  I image a string of these for a race special, or, perhaps,  chartered for a works outing. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Edwardian

[nick_bastable]

Allen at Wosley does this in 7mm and would reduce to 4mm I have asked him for a 2mm version the Wantage coaches I wanted have appeared so I live in hope

 

 

 

 

Chariot-ended inspection coach built for Sir James Ramsden, Managing Director of the Furness Railway.

 

Nick

[Compound2632]

The G20 Third Saloon seems to have been built in relatively large numbers over several Lots.  48 G20s, according to Russell.  You can have one in 4mm using the Shire Scenes replacement brass sides for the Ratio GW 4-Wheel kit.  More recently, I don't know when, Shirescenes introduced a new version so that you can model the original configuration.

 

I have not considered this for CA, because my belief is that they were designed for day-trips and could be chartered to go to the races, say. Clearly, CA is more than a day excursion from GW territory.

 

If you consider the internal layout, they have loos but no luggage space.  Also, I suspect your party could book half a Saloon, there being two saloons per coach, if your party was not large enough to fill both.  I image a string of these for a race special, or, perhaps,  chartered for a works outing. 

 

Agree. These are in the picnic saloon category - the interior layout (at least for a six-wheeler) hardly varied from company to company except for the position of the loo - longitudinal seating with a table down the middle - usually with drop-flap sides. The Midland ones came in first and third class variants with just the upholstery to distinguish. Scroll down a bit here for some magnificent Midland square-light clerestory picnic saloons being prepared for a Cadbury's works outing.

[Edwardian]

The other option, of course, is the Invalid Saloon.  Most Companies seem to have had them.

 

One option, I suppose, is travelling to Wolfringham for a miracle cure, but I think, on the whole, I prefer the idea of the natural, rather than supernatural, health-giving properties of the seaside resort of Birchoverham Next the Sea.  This, of course, would not involve the coach travelling to Castle Aching.

 

So, I have long thought that the Family Saloon was the most appropriate of the genre.

 

Mind you, it might be amusing to have this fellow from Langley Miniature Models around:

 

 

[uax6]

Here's a pic you of some etched sides for a LNWR saloon I've bought:

 

It is a D84/5 picnic saloon, seating 18 third class with luggage and loo.

 

This is the posh clerestory version: aargh, I don't know how to turn the image the right way up on this iPad!

 

There's a GER family saloon in the stately trains collection too:

http://www.statelytrains.com/ger8.html#demo/img/ger8/as-found.jpg

 

Andy g

Edited May 1, 2017 by uax6

[phil_sutters]

This is the posh clerestory version: aargh, I don't know how to turn the image the right way up on this iPad!

image.jpg

 

 

Andy g

Allow me

Edited May 1, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Edwardian]

Well, today I finally got round to replacing the floors in the two K's wagons that I had acquired second-hand and repainted.

 

This, I thought, was a suitable occasion to pose the West Norfolk's entire stock to date.

[phil_sutters]

I do love a coupé, especially a double-ended one.  I am sure that the West Norfolk would have had such a First Class coach upon opening, and I wonder if, by some strange survival, it might have been converted to a Directors' Saloon and, thus, remained in service well into the Twentieth Century?

 

You picture the ex-LSWR Royal Saloon, built for Queen Victoria c.1842, in later life on the Shropshire & Montgomery. The window shape is unmistakable.

 

Below is a later double-ended coupé.  In this case an ex-LSWR Coupé First of 1851, which also ended in Light Railway service, in this case the Kent & East Sussex.  According to Weddell, this, too, might have been a Royal coach, built for the use of the Queen's children. The picture, by H C Casserley  is reproduced in Weddell vol. 1.

 

I liked the idea of this for the WN.  You will note that the end doors have been sealed.  I think a similar arrangement for the West Norfolk; partitions removed completely in the WN's case, with entry via the centre doors, armchairs, tables and a drinks cabinet. 

In the only bound copy of Railway Magazine I have, there is a description and photo of the saloon with historical information and interior details. If there is interest I can scan it. It comes from 1927 so it is well out of copyright.

The mono photo is in KESR livery.

Edited May 1, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Edwardian]

In the only bound copy of Railway Magazine I have, there is a description and photo of the saloon with historical information and interior details. If there is interest I can scan it. It comes from 1927 so it is well out of copyright.

The mono photo is in KESR livery.

 

Yes, please, Phil.

 

Thank you.