Castle Aching

[Nearholmer]

I found that triangular gauges were a lot better for many things than rollers, although you do need the latter for points. I can't recall where my H0 ones came from, I think they might be American (Kadee?), but they would be easy to make if they aren't easy to buy.

 

Years ago, a wise chap who taught me a lot laid-out his very extensive 009 loft layout using roller-gauges that he made using bolts and stacks of washers! His was 009 on the grand scale, a bit like the Craig and Mertonford, and it all ran beautifully, which was no mean achievement with 009 in the 1960s.

 

K

Edited April 30, 2017 by Nearholmer

[BG John]

I find the flat Peco gauges are useful, and they're cheap. Especially good for me as they have 16.5, 18.2 and 18.83 on one gauge, and I model in all three!

[St Enodoc]

I found that triangular gauges were a lot better for many things than rollers, although you do need the latter for points. I can't recall where my H0 ones came from, I think they might be American (Kadee?), but they would be easy to make if they aren't easy to buy.

 

Years ago, a wise chap who taught me a lot laid-out his very extensive 009 loft layout using roller-gauges that he made using bolts and stacks of washers! His was 009 on the grand scale, a bit like the Craig and Mertonford, and it all ran beautifully, which was no mean achievement with 009 in the 1960s.

 

K

Was that David Mander by any chance?

[Nearholmer]

Laurie Maunder. Absolute genius of a 009 modeller, and he lived five doors from us at the time. He used to let me come and watch him at work, and operate the layout; I was his apprentice effectively! Later, he led to foundation of our 009 Society area group, as well as exhibiting several different layouts. Very sadly missed since his passing about two years ago.

 

K

[St Enodoc]

Laurie Maunder. Absolute genius of a 009 modeller, and he lived five doors from us at the time. He used to let me come and watch him at work, and operate the layout; I was his apprentice effectively! Later, he led to foundation of our 009 Society area group, as well as exhibiting several different layouts. Very sadly missed since his passing about two years ago.

 

K

Thanks Kevin. There was a series of articles in the Modeller in 1970/1971, written by Paul Towers, called "The Stronalachar Saga", which described a large 009 layout set in Scotland. The builder was named as David Mander. Mander/Maunder sound too close to be a coincidence, so I guess it might have been the same layout. If so, I envy you as that was the first of very few 009 layouts that I read about that was operated like a real railway.

[Nearholmer]

Not the same, but very similar. David Mander was, I think, a few years older. Laurie started in 009 when the eggerbahn stuff became available, which coincided with him getting married and he and Linda buying their first house, I think. He went from eggerbahn, through a small portable layout for which he made stub points, to starting on a big loft layout, all in about two years! He was a huge talent not only in modelling, but film making, and a stack of other hobbies, very artistic, and very skilled. By the early 70s, his loft layout was effectively finished, to a very high standard, and medium-sized portable layouts followed. One was specifically designed to be transported in a three-wheeler microcar, with two exhibitors, and all gubbins ..... it was b terrifying, especially coming home after dark, as the 'car' had pathetic headlights, and even worse brakes, and the route always involved miles of really tight country lanes!

 

Anyway, enough reminiscing!

Edited April 30, 2017 by Nearholmer

[corneliuslundie]

"16.5, 18.2 and 18.83 on one gauge, and I model in all three!"

Wot, no 28 (and a little bit)?

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

The GER Society does have a list of Coaches, but unfortunately there are no saloons.  The Bluebell Railway has this one.  There are other saloons around on the internet.

[BG John]

"16.5, 18.2 and 18.83 on one gauge, and I model in all three!"

Wot, no 28 (and a little bit)?

Jonathan

No. It's a bit annoying, but I've got some nice handmade 3 point gauges for that!

[phil_sutters]

The GER Society does have a list of Coaches, but unfortunately there are no saloons.  The Bluebell Railway has this one.  There are other saloons around on the internet.

There's one right here, from another blue railway company - the right hand compartment may be for 'outdoor' staff rather than luggage, as it has windows - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/77596-sdjr-6wheeled-first-class-saloon-no-6/

Edited April 30, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

There's one right here, from another blue railway company - the right hand compartment may be for 'outdoor' staff rather than luggage, as it has windows - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/77596-sdjr-6wheeled-first-class-saloon-no-6/

 

That's an interesting Highbridge variation on the standard Midland 32ft D459 family carriage, of which 28 were built 1881-7. Differences include: 

• non-standard (wider) quarter-lights flanking the non-door droplight
• longer lavatory compartment
• and, as you observe, droplights to the end luggage compartment double doors - I doubt this would be for staff though, unless they were expected to stand or sit on the luggage!

The Midland version has internal dimensions: lavatory: 3'3"; saloon (with longitudinal bench seats): 10'6", standard first class compartment with transverse seats: 7'3"; servants' compartment (to third class standards): 6'0"; luggage: 4' 0 1/2 " - all with communicating doors on the centre-line. I'd estimate the lavatory of the S&DJR version to be about 4', with the difference being taken out of the servants' compartment which looks rather squeezed up. The back of the longitudinal bench seat can be seen through the long windows on both coaches, but I wonder if the S&DJR carriage had a single long saloon, or at least its equivalent of the standard first class compartment fitted up differently - the standard first class headrest upholstery isn't visible and would get in the way of the wider windows. I like the return instructions so elaborately painted on the solebar.

 

Highbridge Works did seem to have fun playing fast-and-loose with standard Midland designs - for instance, the blue version of the standard 31' D516 centre-luggage composite has equal width luggage doors - on the Midland vehicles, the LH door is a standard item but the RH one a special, only 18" wide. My impression (from a photo in Midland Style) is that on the S&DJR carriages both doors were 21" wide.

 

Sorry to digress onto matters so far from West Norfolk (now that's not happened before, has it?) but while I'm off on this tangent, I mentioned on another of our host's threads a Midland Derby - Bristol train made up of S&DJR 46' bogie carriages - these were another Highbridge invention: is the cove roof LSWR-inspired or the same profile as the main roof of a Midland clerestory? The panelling is pure pre-1896 Midland arc-roof style though the carriages were I think mostly built after that date; the bogies look in-midland - are the a LSWR design? I have been looking for but can't find my copy of Russ Garner's S&DJR stock list but there is an oddity that has been puzzling me for a while: as far as I can work out, there were two versions of the 46' all thirds: seven compartments with an end luggage compartment, or three compartments / lavatory / four compartments. The Midland's North-to-West carriage marshalling book for July, August and September 1911, which details this train, calls for a 68-seat, 7 compartment bogie carriage with lavatory and 'locker' (i.e. luggage compartment) - seemingly wanting the best of both! The other carriages are lavatory composites with locker, 2 first (11 seats) and 4 third compartments (39 seats) - which would correspond to this vehicle if the coupe was a luggage compartment... I've been told that these carriages were of rather unstable appearance being regularly rebuilt according to traffic needs!

[Poggy1165]

There are a couple of very good books about LBSC coaches, one of which contains details of their saloons.

 

In one of these volumes I found a passing reference to GC trains on a cup final day (back in the times when the Cup Final was at Crystal Palace). Apparently specials left Marylebone for various places in the North at ten minute intervals during the late evening. But more interestingly - and more relevantly to this discussion - the trains included saloons from all the Southern companies. Now given that the trains were headed in the general direction of Yorkshire, this implies that there weren't enough of these vehicles to go around, and that they were 'hired' to foreign (but non-competitive) companies when necessary. So you might possibly justify some exotic examples in a train of these things.

 

By the way, the said books are worth having just for the general constructional information they contain. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Poggy1165

[phil_sutters]

That's an interesting Highbridge variation on the standard Midland 32ft D459 family carriage, of which 28 were built 1881-7. Differences include: 

• non-standard (wider) quarter-lights flanking the non-door droplight
• longer lavatory compartment
• and, as you observe, droplights to the end luggage compartment double doors - I doubt this would be for staff though, unless they were expected to stand or sit on the luggage!

The Midland version has internal dimensions: lavatory: 3'3"; saloon (with longitudinal bench seats): 10'6", standard first class compartment with transverse seats: 7'3"; servants' compartment (to third class standards): 6'0"; luggage: 4' 0 1/2 " - all with communicating doors on the centre-line. I'd estimate the lavatory of the S&DJR version to be about 4', with the difference being taken out of the servants' compartment which looks rather squeezed up. The back of the longitudinal bench seat can be seen through the long windows on both coaches, but I wonder if the S&DJR carriage had a single long saloon, or at least its equivalent of the standard first class compartment fitted up differently - the standard first class headrest upholstery isn't visible and would get in the way of the wider windows. I like the return instructions so elaborately painted on the solebar.

 

Highbridge Works did seem to have fun playing fast-and-loose with standard Midland designs - for instance, the blue version of the standard 31' D516 centre-luggage composite has equal width luggage doors - on the Midland vehicles, the LH door is a standard item but the RH one a special, only 18" wide. My impression (from a photo in Midland Style) is that on the S&DJR carriages both doors were 21" wide.

 

Sorry to digress onto matters so far from West Norfolk (now that's not happened before, has it?) but while I'm off on this tangent, I mentioned on another of our host's threads a Midland Derby - Bristol train made up of S&DJR 46' bogie carriages - these were another Highbridge invention: is the cove roof LSWR-inspired or the same profile as the main roof of a Midland clerestory? The panelling is pure pre-1896 Midland arc-roof style though the carriages were I think mostly built after that date; the bogies look in-midland - are the a LSWR design? I have been looking for but can't find my copy of Russ Garner's S&DJR stock list but there is an oddity that has been puzzling me for a while: as far as I can work out, there were two versions of the 46' all thirds: seven compartments with an end luggage compartment, or three compartments / lavatory / four compartments. The Midland's North-to-West carriage marshalling book for July, August and September 1911, which details this train, calls for a 68-seat, 7 compartment bogie carriage with lavatory and 'locker' (i.e. luggage compartment) - seemingly wanting the best of both! The other carriages are lavatory composites with locker, 2 first (11 seats) and 4 third compartments (39 seats) - which would correspond to this vehicle if the coupe was a luggage compartment... I've been told that these carriages were of rather unstable appearance being regularly rebuilt according to traffic needs!

I am not very knowledgeable about diagrams - if the D516 is a 6 wheeled four compartment + luggage design, with thirds at either end, then the firsts and the luggage in the middle, this could be Coach 20 in Colin Maggs' Highbridge in its heyday. The luggage compartment doors look equal sized.

My Triang clerestory hack is trying to look like that, although it is numbered 19 - by hand, like the crests and lettering. 50 years on, I don't remember whether was a good reason for the number - e.g. seen in a photo. - or like 20 but not quite! I would really like to swap the G shaped GWR grab handles for nice reversed and elongated S-shaped ones, there are an awful lot to do!

All the official Derby photos that I have are in the album with the saloon. My only other picture reference that has a few more photos is Maggs' book. I have a rather dog-eared collection of photo-copied drawings by Jem Harrison and P.R.Bunce and P.M.Giles from Model Railways in 1979 - 80.

Jem Harrison labels the bogies under the 48' 7 compartment compo lav. and the 46' 6 compartment compo luggage lav. as being 'Fox's patent pressed steel bogies.

[Donw]

Not the same, but very similar. David Mander was, I think, a few years older. Laurie started in 009 when the eggerbahn stuff became available, which coincided with him getting married and he and Linda buying their first house, I think. He went from eggerbahn, through a small portable layout for which he made stub points, to starting on a big loft layout, all in about two years! He was a huge talent not only in modelling, but film making, and a stack of other hobbies, very artistic, and very skilled. By the early 70s, his loft layout was effectively finished, to a very high standard, and medium-sized portable layouts followed. One was specifically designed to be transported in a three-wheeler microcar, with two exhibitors, and all gubbins ..... it was b terrifying, especially coming home after dark, as the 'car' had pathetic headlights, and even worse brakes, and the route always involved miles of really tight country lanes!

 

Anyway, enough reminiscing!

 

I remember an entertaining article by Laurie he had made a circular 009 layout with the operator in the middle and described haow he felt at an exhibition he was wearing it like a tutu and being pushed around by the viewing crowds.

Don

[Compound2632]

I am not very knowledgeable about diagrams - if the D516 is a 6 wheeled four compartment + luggage design, with thirds at either end, then the firsts and the luggage in the middle, this could be Coach 20 in Colin Maggs' Highbridge in its heyday. The luggage compartment doors look equal sized.

My Triang clerestory hack is trying to look like that, although it is numbered 19 - by hand, like the crests and lettering. 50 years on, I don't remember whether was a good reason for the number - e.g. seen in a photo. - or like 20 but not quite! I would really like to swap the G shaped GWR grab handles for nice reversed and elongated S-shaped ones, there are an awful lot to do!

All the official Derby photos that I have are in the album with the saloon. My only other picture reference that has a few more photos is Maggs' book. I have a rather dog-eared collection of photo-copied drawings by Jem Harrison and P.R.Bunce and P.M.Giles from Model Railways in 1979 - 80.

Jem Harrison labels the bogies under the 48' 7 compartment compo lav. and the 46' 6 compartment compo luggage lav. as being 'Fox's patent pressed steel bogies.

SDJR 6-wh comp-luggage No19 - model late 60s.jpg

 

The photo in Midland Style is of No. 19. My references to Midland diagram numbers are principally to make sure the Edwardian leafs through his newly-bought copy of Lacy & Dow's Midland Carriages until he realises what two letters spell perfection... 

 

48'? I though the bogie carriages were all 46' - must find Russ Garner's booklet... The point about 46' is that it's Highbridge sui generis - 48' was a characteristic length for both Derby and the LSWR.

[Nearholmer]

Don

 

That layout was "Weald Barrow", a play on 'wheelbarrow', which was what the microcar was called ...... it was the one that I was referring to. I've got a photo of him in the middle of it, taken at Luton exhibition, probably in about 1977-80. It might have been at the very first Expong, then at Greenwich, too, although that may have been the next one, which was rather Porthmadogish.

 

His articles, his films, and conversations with him, were always a joy, because he had a wonderful sense of the absurd.

 

K

[Edwardian]

The Midland's July, August, and September 1903 timetable book* has two daily expresses for Cromer, Norwich, Yarmouth and Norwich via the M&GN conveying through coaches from Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham (between them also giving through coach accommodation from Nottingham and Leicester) - so you can imagine a cavalcade of clerestory luggage composites. The carriage marshalling details I have are for 1922 so probably less helpful - the through coaches were likely somewhat curtailed compared to their Edwardian heyday. (*I have an Ian Allan reprint dating from the 1960s.) As far as I can make out, the D516 6-wheel composites were not much used for long-distance through-coach working with bogie luggage composites being preferred - square-panelled clerestories for the more important routes, older arc-roof vehicles for more humble destinations.

 

I like your idea of the family carriage / horsebox / open carriage truck combo - almost the Edwardian equivalent of those campervans with carry-along micro-car (what's the technical term for these?). The Midland was building open carriage trucks as late as 1920 so there must have been some passenger-rated traffic being offered - though I suppose mostly same-day house-removal pantechnicons rather than private vehicles. But there must have been the occasional need to move  private carriages around the country? Any evidence out there?

 

Edit to add: the engine exchange started in 1906 - four of the M&GN's seven Hudswell Clarke 4-4-0T engines were exchanged for three Midland 0-4-4T engines - these were from Johnson's first batch, the 6 Class (i.e. the M&GN got the oldest suitable engines), but the leading dimensions were sufficiently close to the 1532 Class that the forthcoming Bachmann model would suit. The M&GN needed more powerful engines while the Midland got handy small engines to pair with old Pullman cars in its first experiments with motor train operation - apparently the engines remained in M&GN livery apart from receiving MR initials and heraldic device - must have been quite a sight at Wirksworth! Likewise the Midland engines seem to have remained red - no repaint would have occurred unless there was need for a major overhaul at Melton Constable, I suppose.

 

NB Great Yarmouth and Stalham Light Railway - I gather that by getting itself Light Railway status it could fend off Great Eastern running powers!

 

This is good news, because it sounds as if the Ratio 48' Clayton bogie clerestories (back-dated to restore the door top-lights) would be ideal for a through service from the Midland. CA should be able to accommodate a set of 4. You might be able to suggest a suitable formation?

 

I was thinking of the MGN Hudswell Clarkes, but I could alternate them with the Bachmann MR 0-4-4T.

 

Track!

 

Looks like I'm back to building points!

 

The consensus appears to be try a SMP PCB sleepered kit and then move onto to doing points to suit.  The right templates would seem to be the key to that!  Very kindly, DonW appears to be on to that, for which I am profoundly grateful.

 

Family Saloons

 

There were many types of saloon; First Class, Second Class, Third Class, Picnic, Invalid. My favourites are the so-called Family Saloons.  These tended to have a common arrangement; a large 'saloon' with bench seating and/or armchairs for the family, a smaller conventional Second Class compartment for their servants, a luggage compartment, and, probably, a loo.   

 

As Poggy says, there is a superb 2-Vol set on LB&SC 4 & 6-wheel stock.  They are fascinating and really helped me to understand the subject.  Vol 2 includes saloons. 

 

There is an excellent Brighton Clerestory Family Saloon of 1902 that "by 1908" had been vacuum braked so as to be able to go foreign.

 

Weddell gives us a rather nice LSW example of 1885 that I have been thinking of for a while.  This is vacuum-braked line, but because these saloons, too, went foreign, by 1905 they were also air-braked.

 

As Compound says, Lacey & Dow furnish numerous saloons.  There is, for example, a lovely 6-wheel Family Saloon of 1883, very in the same style as the lamented Slaters Clayton 6-wheelers that Coopercraft killed off.

 

Luggage Composites

 

A great idea.  I take my hat off to Phil for his S&D example.  It is beautiful and the height of Tri-ang bashing.  If the WN's Tri-angs come out half so well I shall be pleased and grateful.

 

Progress?

 

I have been fitting footboards to the remaining 4-wheelers and cutting the roofs.  I have done more filing and filling and have re-sprayed, so I hope they will be ready for painting soon.

 

I also had my first go with Comet W Irons.  As I am not planning on compensating the chassis, it was simplicity itself.  Sole bar detail, axle-box springs to follow.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Edwardian

[nick_bastable]

 

Track!

 

Looks like I'm back to building points!

 

The consensus appears to be try a SMP PCB sleepered kit and then move onto to doing points to suit.  The right templates would seem to be the key to that!  Very kindly, DonW appears to be on to that, for which I am profoundly grateful.

 

 

always good to push ones limits   although I worry CA is becoming a railway thread

 

Nick

[uax6]

Theres also some very nice LNWR saloons. One in particular is very posh, being WCJS really and it has a clerestory roof and bogies (and I'm at least halfway through doing the drawing to cut it on the silhouette...) And typically I can't find an image online...

 

Andy G

[Compound2632]

This is good news, because it sounds as if the Ratio 48' Clayton bogie clerestories (back-dated to replace the door top-lights) would be ideal for a through service from the Midland. CA should be able to accommodate a set of 4. You might be able to suggest a suitable formation?

 

I was thinking of the MGN Hudswell Clarkes, but I could alternate them with the Bachmann MR 0-4-4T.

 

As Compound says, Lacey & Dow furnish numerous saloons.  There is, for example, a lovely 6-wheel Family Saloon of 1883, very in the same style as the lamented Slaters Clayton 6-wheelers that Coopercraft killed off.

 

 

Yes, the Midland example is exactly the D459 family carriage I was comparing with Phil's photo of the S&DJR one, No. 6.

 

The Midland through service would ideally be made up of luggage composites from several originating points - but D499 BTL / D509 CL pairings were used - could be the portion working through to the WHR off the Cromer / Norwich / Yarmouth train. Adding a D486 TL would give too much third class accommodation. 

[£1.38]

The Potts one is my favourite saloon. Every light railway should have one.

 

 

From the Colonel Stephens site.

[Compound2632]

there weren't enough of these vehicles to go around, and that they were 'hired' to foreign (but non-competitive) companies when necessary. So you might possibly justify some exotic examples in a train of these things.

 

That's interesting. I've long been puzzled by the fact that the leading vehicle of the up down Manchester express in the Wellingborough accident of 1898 was G&SWR 32' 6-wheel saloon No. 161 - how did it get to be in this train? According to the accident report, its only occupant was a guard who was seriously injured - lucky to get away with his life. One would have thought it stood no chance at 13 tons with the weight of four brand-new 60' 12-wheel bogie clerestory carriages at 30 tons apiece behind it but apparently it was not very badly damaged despite being turned over on its side.

 

Edit - corrected to down express - but even so, why was the G&SWR saloon working north by this train rather than a Scotch Express?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Compound2632

[uax6]

I would have thought that these saloons cropped up all over the place, either in use or returning home, or indeed running out light to pick a family up. So you could probably have one running around all the time!

 

Heres some instructions lifted from the Oban-Line.info website from the Caley 1915 timetable appendix:

 

EMPTY SALOON, FAMILY, AND OTHER SPECIAL PASSENGER CARRIAGES BY GOODS TRAINS.-Empty Saloons, Family Carriages, and other highly-finished Passenger Vehicles must not be conveyed by Goods Trains, as such Vehicles are unable to stand the buffeting inseparable from Goods Train shunting.

It may occasionally be necessary, however, under exceptional pressure, for Stations on the Callander and Oban Section to forward such Vehicles to Stirling by Mixed Trains and Irregular Goods Trains, but when this is done Brakesmen and Shunters must take care that Goods Wagons are not shunted against the Passenger Vehicles with too much force. The Vehicles must be transferred at Stirling to Passenger or Coaching Stock Trains as the circumstances may determine.

 

Andy G

[Nearholmer]

Which prompts another question: if someone booked a saloon ride from, say, Glasgow to Eastbourne, how long might the vehicle stay "off system" and unused, before being recalled? I can imagine that if the client had a return journey booked within a week, it might simply wait for him/her, but a fortnight, or a month?

 

And, a bit like the horsebox problem, and the gunpowder van conundrum: for a single journey, with no booked return trip, was it the originating or destination railway that provided the vehicle, or did they (telegraphically) compare notes, to decide which of them had a vehicle free? And, if the originating company owned no saloons, or had them all booked-out?

 

Like any "non-pool" special-purpose vehicle, I can see a lot of empty mileage, a lot of time providing shade for the ballast in sidings, and an army of clerks kept busy, so the charges must have been enormous, and the temptation for a company to dispense with theirs great.

 

K

[uax6]

The charges for the LNWR semi-royals (which were basically Very up-market family saloons) were something like 20 times the first class ticket price to the destination (it could be more, but its a long time since I read that bit in the LNWR carriage book by Jenks), so for the smaller, less posh vehicles it probably wasn't so expensive, but probably 10 times the 1st class ticket price. Which, when you think about it, isn't that bad for a single vehicle from x to y with everything in it, and not having to change. No car at the time could provide similar accommodation.

 

I agree that they probably spent most of their life sitting around, which in model form they will do too!

 

Andy G

 

Edit, the reference states that the fee was thought to be two dozen first class fares to the destination for the semi-royals.

Edited May 1, 2017 by uax6