Castle Aching

[RedGemAlchemist]

I've always wondered why I absolutely hate the appearance of most German steam locomotives unlike the majority of the fellow Finnish railway enthusiasts and now realized Edwardian said there why. Although we were influenced by German designs luckily our own designers appreciated more the clean appearance.

Agreed. You up in Scandinavia appreciate good locomotive design.

[runs as required]

I get confused about which railway the 'Erie' was, but one of them got sensible and electrified part of its route, which was a sensible way not to need ugly steam locos.

But not as forward looking as the Seebord Airline that "future proofed" itself very effectively.

 

"I say, I say, I say. What has six wheels and flies?"

"A SARR switcher shunting a cattle dock!"

[Edwardian]

I've always wondered why I absolutely hate the appearance of most German steam locomotives unlike the majority of the fellow Finnish railway enthusiasts and now realized Edwardian said there why. Although we were influenced by German designs luckily our own designers appreciated more the clean appearance.

 

Seems to me that the older locomotives feature clean and elegant lines, so look like British locomotives, but with large American cabs and wood-burner 'smoke stacks', and railings on the footplate. 

[Nearholmer]

The moderniser won't give up, you know.

 

This one was designed for the extension that would have pushed WNR metals right through to Spalding, hence the road name.

[Compound2632]

On 08/05/2018 at 15:52, Edwardian said:

Seems to me that the older locomotives feature clean and elegant lines, so look like British locomotives, but with large American cabs and wood-burner 'smoke stacks', and railings on the footplate. 

 

The Worsdells spent time at Altoona and came home with the idea that a proper cab would be a good thing; I've not recently heard anyone criticising the clean lines of their engines.

 

But, just to reinforce the general point:

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Devo63]

The elegant lines and the clean outlines of British-designed locomotives do set them apart from practice elsewhere. 

 

Is the native design tradition especially beautiful, or am I merely conditioned to think so?

Before the big American inspired locomotives were built for South Australia we had some local designs which were very British in appearance. Three of these F class "Dolly" tanks have been preserved but only one has been returned to steam since retirement. Last I heard it was sitting in storage requiring new tyres for the driving wheels.

 

BTW the first US style 4-8-2, 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 were built in the UK by Armstrong-Whitworth

[Nearholmer]

Is it conceivable that a MR, GNR or GCR US mogul could visit CA?

[Devo63]

In the early days of the South Australian Railways they even rebuilt a couple of US built locos into a more British style. 

[runs as required]

I like the idea of a Mr. Gnrr a mogul from the US of A visiting Castle Aching. Would he be just popping over from Sandringham to try to interest Col. James in a Camelback?

dh

[Northroader]

Is it conceivable that a MR, GNR or GCR US mogul could visit CA?

Something a bit smaller would be nice:

[Nearholmer]

The boilers from the GNR American locos were apparently the best bits, and they were sold to the Anglo-Swiss Condensed Milk Company, which is a little-known, and less cared-about, fact.

 

Surely this must be a candidate for conversion from a cheap H0 model.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Before the big American inspired locomotives were built for South Australia we had some local designs which were very British in appearance. Three of these F class "Dolly" tanks have been preserved but only one has been returned to steam since retirement. Last I heard it was sitting in storage requiring new tyres for the driving wheels.

 

BTW the first US style 4-8-2, 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 were built in the UK by Armstrong-Whitworth

 

Victoria railways and NSW seem to have plenty of British-built locos/designs.  A great source of inspiration for the UK freelancer - the sort of locos that could be bought from private builders.

 

 

In the early days of the South Australian Railways they even rebuilt a couple of US built locos into a more British style. 

 

Tasteful!

 

 

Is it conceivable that a MR, GNR or GCR US mogul could visit CA?

 

If I were capable of building one, yes!

 

The Worsdells spent time at Altoona and came home with the idea that a proper cab would be a good thing; I've not recently heard anyone criticising the clean lines of their engines.

 

But, just to reinforce the general point:

 

4-4-0_Midland_Beatrice_1757.jpg

 

The Stockton & Darlington had a passenger class with large 'American' cabs to protect the crews from the brutal conditions over Stainmore, but they were apparently not well received and were soon replaced by smaller and more open affairs.

 

Later on the NE still proved resistant to change. I always feel sorry for McDonnell.  He was an organiser, a standardiser and rationaliser, and no company required rationalisation in its locomotive department than the North Eastern in the 1880s.  

 

But they drove him out.  The enginemen would have no truck (pun intended) with his bogies.  The Worsdells got away with changes that McDonnell never would.  It seems it was necessary to have a period of crisis, not to mention an interregnum, before the spell of Fletcher was sufficiently broken and new ideas were tolerated.   

 

No rebellion seems to have been sparked by the clean and modern Worsdell lines, the bogies or the capacious cabs.  

[Edwardian]

The boilers from the GNR American locos were apparently the best bits, and they were sold to the Anglo-Swiss Condensed Milk Company, which is a little-known, and less cared-about, fact.

 

Surely this must be a candidate for conversion from a cheap H0 model.

 

Of course, The UK Mogul was Great Eastern, but not extant by the time CA is set.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Edwardian

[RedGemAlchemist]

Before the big American inspired locomotives were built for South Australia we had some local designs which were very British in appearance. Three of these F class "Dolly" tanks have been preserved but only one has been returned to steam since retirement. Last I heard it was sitting in storage requiring new tyres for the driving wheels.

 

BTW the first US style 4-8-2, 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 were built in the UK by Armstrong-Whitworth

Exactly. And, as mentioned, Scandinavian locos generally look very pleasing. I wouldn't even mind one on the KLR. I mean if the KESR can get away with having one from Norway...

 

The boilers from the GNR American locos were apparently the best bits, and they were sold to the Anglo-Swiss Condensed Milk Company, which is a little-known, and less cared-about, fact.

 

Surely this must be a candidate for conversion from a cheap H0 model.

See, that doesn't look bad at all.

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[RedGemAlchemist]

Later on the NE still proved resistant to change. I always feel sorry for McDonnell.  He was an organiser, a standardiser and rationaliser, and no company required rationalisation in its locomotive department than the North Eastern in the 1880s.  

 

But they drove him out.  The enginemen would have no truck (pun intended) with his bogies.  The Worsdells got away with changes that McDonnell never would.  It seems it was necessary to have a period of crisis, not to mention an interregnum, before the spell of Fletcher was sufficiently broken and new ideas were tolerated.   

 

No rebellion seems to have been sparked by the clean and modern Worsdell lines, the bogies or the capacious cabs.  

Agreed. With the mentality the North Eastern had at that point, McDonnell never stood a chance. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[Compound2632]

The boilers from the GNR American locos were apparently the best bits, and they were sold to the Anglo-Swiss Condensed Milk Company, which is a little-known, and less cared-about, fact.

 

Surely this must be a candidate for conversion from a cheap H0 model.

 

Were the Great Northern Baldwins identical to the Midland ones? I don't think I've ever seen a photo of a Great Central one - they must not have ventured far enough south to be caught by the home counties photographers - who mostly had eyes (and plates) only for the 4-4-2s and 4-6-0s.

 

Query - were Robinson's 4-6-0s so unsuccessful that they deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Drummond's?

Edited May 8, 2018 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

Were the Great Northern Baldwins identical to the Midland ones? I don't think I've ever seen a photo of a Great Central one - they must not have ventured far enough south to be caught by the home counties photographers - who mostly had eyes (and plates) only for the 4-4-2s and 4-6-0s.

 

Query - were Robinson's 4-6-0s so unsuccessful that they deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Drummond's?

 

Robinson seemed to have had a number of attempts, IIRC, and I think one or two might have made decent mixed traffic types, but they don't seem to have reached the heights of the Directors.

[runs as required]

In the early days of the South Australian Railways they even rebuilt a couple of US built locos into a more British style. 

there was something of a Darlington skyline about it before rebuilding

[Compound2632]

Robinson seemed to have had a number of attempts, IIRC, and I think one or two might have made decent mixed traffic types, but they don't seem to have reached the heights of the Directors.

 

But weren't they designed for pulling fish and such rather than Manchester expresses?

[ATT]

Seems to me that the older locomotives feature clean and elegant lines, so look like British locomotives, but with large American cabs and wood-burner 'smoke stacks', and railings on the footplate. 

 Well spotted - majority of the early locomotives are actually British design and build. Apart from couple of test builds, domestic locomotive industry didn't properly start until 1900 and the Finnish locomotive design tradition started around the same time. In my personal opinion the early British types as well as the first own designs from around 1900...1910 are the best looking locomotives we've had.

[sem34090]

Not when I have a whole album of steam-outline Heath Robinson designs to contemplate

NO!!! Just NO!!!

 

I know you have drawings. So do I. This is one instance where my offer of "if you have the drawings I'll try and CAD it" does NOT apply!

 

I agree with your sentiments.

 

The Belgians just copied the Caley...

 

And I can't fault this German-built Dutch loco:

Nothing to do with my LBSCR tendencies AT ALL!!!

Edited May 8, 2018 by sem34090

[Nearholmer]

I don’t know whether the GNR, MR and GNR moguls were identical, but they were certainly very similar, although with different tenders to meet local tastes.

 

Oh, hang on, the Midland ones had tapered boilers, the GCR seems to have parallel.

 

Surely somebody must make a 4mm/ft kit.

 

Picture stolen from a GCR site that is linked to German Wikipedia, which seems the best place to find out about these locos, which is a bit strange!

 

Light axle loads and all, they sound ideal for the WNR.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

But weren't they designed for pulling fish and such rather than Manchester expresses?

 

Was there really no attempt to make a successful express loco to this arrangement?

 

I'm sure the first thing Robinson would have done was asked the traffic department to put one of his 4-6-0s on the Manchester express if any looked likely to be up to the job. 

 

Seems to me that these are just excuses.  It's not like me to be blindly partisan, but here I think honours go to Churchward for laying down the design for half a century of very successful 4-6-0s in both express passenger and mixed traffic form. None of his contemporaries got close.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Edwardian

[Annie]

Fascinating.  That's the first picture ever that I've seen of a Great Central American mogul.

[Nearholmer]

OK, so, to speak like a person being interviewed on Radio 4, the GN and GC had Baldwins, the MR had two lots, some Baldwins, very much the same as the others, and some Alcos, with tapered boilers, which, I reckon, could be chopped from this slightly later version.

 

And, on the Warwickshire Railways site, there is a photo of one of these, apparently on a passenger train, at New Street.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Nearholmer