Castle Aching

[Annie]

The GER C53 tram engines definitely didn't run with the W&UT bogie tramway coaches as they had all been sent off to the Kelvedon and Tollesbury Light Railway by then.

My own little virtual line only has the 4 wheel ex-W&UT coaches.  (Even though I'd love to have some of the bogie coaches, - but can't afford to have them commissioned at present.)

 

But gosh those Rapido RTR coaches are lovely models.

 

And just to make it perfectly plain least others fall into error, -  Selsey Tramway coaches are nothing like W&UT bogie coaches and cannot be said to be the same no matter how poor your eyesight might be.

[Schooner]

"These carriages were built for the opening of the tramway company by the Falcon Engine Company of Loughborough in 1897. A short time later an almost indentical carriage was built by Hurst Nelson, making a total of 4 carriages, one brake / composite and three composites. The carriages ran on 4-wheel bogies, were 37 feet over buffers and had balcony ends. There was a central gangway, with seating arranged transversely across the carriage"

 

 

In action

All available (as kits) in 7mm, which I thought might make a rather fine 'prestige' train for a Little 'O'mpire layout.

 

Bonus Edwardian rural station detail and set-dec pic:

Good luck getting the bike on there, ma'am...

 

Same same at Looe:

 

Delightful.

[Nearholmer]

That’s the sort of thing I had in mind.
 

They do highlight the genius of the GER design, with its swan-neck headstock/solebar. Even narrow gauge balcony coaches of the same general type struggled to get down as low as the GER ones.

 

 

[monkeysarefun]

On 09/12/2023 at 01:43, Schooner said:

 

https://www.intentio.shop/KirtleyModels

 

:)

Unrelated to anything , someone (not me) could  create enhanced downloadable or printed brickpapers   by extracting the displacement map and associated data from the image and manipulating it to produce the simulated 3D effect as used in computer games and renders.

 

Heres one I did a while ago, from memory  I think I used a freebie called crazybump to extract the data, then Blender to create the effect. It is   exaggerated for demo purposes but shows what is possible, especially if you look at the image on the screen  from various  angles..

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by monkeysarefun

[Nearholmer]

Looks good up-close (although I’m concerned that it might need re-pointing), but it has “rivers” of pattern repetition in it when seen as a whole, so you’d have to be careful with it in large, uninterrupted areas like gable ends.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

it has “rivers” of pattern repetition in it when seen as a whole, so you’d have to be careful with it in large, uninterrupted areas like gable ends.

 

A common problem with brick etc. papers generated from photos. The paved area in the goods yard of our club layout suffers dreadfully from this so we're trying to break the pattern up with randomly-placed piles of crates and other goods.

[monkeysarefun]

23 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Looks good up-close (although I’m concerned that it might need re-pointing), but it has “rivers” of pattern repetition in it when seen as a whole, so you’d have to be careful with it in large, uninterrupted areas like gable ends.

 

It was only a small area that I used to work out the technique, then tiled to get enough of a representation to see the effect.

 

Hey remember that Magic Eye book and poster craze of the 90's that had those weird images in them that you had to slightly defocuss your eyes in order to see some 3D flower or similar that would pop out of it? 

 

If you try the technique to the brick paper image you get the same effect. It is still just bricks -  though they are more 3D-ish and they appear to be floating  inside my laptop.

 

Or maybe its just the Friday arvo drinkies I'm having.

Edited December 15, 2023 by monkeysarefun

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

Hey remember that Magic Eye book and poster craze of the 90's that had those weird images in them that you had to slightly defocuss your eyes in order to see some 3D flower or similar that would pop out of it? 

 

If you try the technique to the brick paper image you get the same effect. It is still just bricks -  though they are more 3D-ish and they appear to be floating  inside my laptop.

 

Yes, if I stare too long at our goods yard paving, I start seeing the face of W.E. Gladstone...

[Edwardian]

Sinning again.

 

You know when there is something you just like, but that is not really a fit with your passions and projects?

 

Actually, I started as a devotee of the GWR in South Devon the mid-thirties, and have a modest collection of LNER matériel suitable for the ECML (GN Section) in the late-thirties. 

 

Yet, there is no excuse for the Museum of Madness's latest acquisition. 

 

I knew very little about the LNER's Sentinel steam railcars, but they had always appealed and often the well-known NUCast kit comes up for sale:

 

 

 

I've always held off, however, because, well, I have no use for them.

 

Then I spotted something else, so I mugged up a bit on the LNER railcars and found that what I had stumbled upon was a Diagram 89 Sentinel car (1928). It's different from the NuCast kit and, I suspect, scratch built. They were numerous and widespread. I could run one on CA if spinning the period forward for the odd running session. This one, Eclipse, seems to have spent her entire working life at Hull Botanic Gardens, so quite why (on the side not shown) the destination is 'Darlington' is not known!

 

Apart from repairing the steps, there does not seem to be a lot wrong with it and I am lost to its charms. 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Edwardian
Spelling!

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

and have a modest collection of LNER matériel suitable for the ECML (GN Section) in the late-thirties. 

 

Now that's a confession...

 

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Then I spotted something else, so I mugged up a bit of the LNER railcars and found that what I had stumbled upon was a Diagram 89 Sentinel car. It's different from the NuCast kit and, I suspect, scratch built. They were numerous and widespread. I could run one on CA if spinning the period forward for the odd running session. This one, Eclipse, seems to have spent her entire working life at Hull Botanic Gardens, so quite why (on the side not shown) the destination is 'Darlington' is not known!

 

Have you seen:

 

 

Linking to the most recent post but it's been going on for a good while.

 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Now that's a confession...

 

 

Yes, you should see my beaver tail.

[Annie]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Then I spotted something else, so I mugged up a bit on the LNER railcars and found that what I had stumbled upon was a Diagram 89 Sentinel car (1928). It's different from the NuCast kit and, I suspect, scratch built.

Now there's a lucky find, - well done!

[drduncan]

On 08/12/2023 at 11:45, Edwardian said:

 

So, as will be seen, the repairs in addition to the pony truck are larglely cosmetic. Fortunately both 'pins' for a tender connector are present. The front spring and valance will need reconstructing, along with the rear of the cab footplate and handrails. All casualties of the the inadequate packaging.  

 

The coupled wheelbase I have not checked, but I think it's likely to be at least close to correct. Ideally the mainframe would be reset slightly forward to allow a better alignment with the splashers. This would also align the leading wheels better with their axleboxes.

 

The obvious mistake is that the tender frames are the wrong way round!  The shorter interval should be to the rear. These frames are already loose at the ends, however, so I should be able to prise these off with care and swop them round! I note the cut outs are not the D-shaped. The Y14s had both patterns, but I'd need to swot up on the T26s.

 

So, there are some issues, even without the need to back-date, but with the damage refund we are looking at a model that set me back c.£57 plus postage, so it's worth the risk and the hassle to try to get it right!

 

Assuming a sound working model results, as I say, the changes to GER condition will not be great. I need a nice dished smoke box door, with separate handrail to the face, and Alan Gibson's GER safety valve. The tender fenders need careful removal.

 

Then some detail would not go amiss: Loco and tender guard irons, lamp irons , loco brakes, and sand boxes and pipes come immediately to mind.  

 

Then the challenge of the fully lined ultramarine livery.

 

 

 

 

If the whole thing is getting a repaint to GER  colours drop the tender in a tub of B & Q paint stripper and put the lid of the tub on, leave for a few days. It’s very good at dissolving Araldite or uhu type glues as well as taking the paint off.

Duncan 

Edited December 16, 2023 by drduncan
Typo

[drmditch]

On 15/12/2023 at 19:41, Edwardian said:

Then I spotted something else, so I mugged up a bit on the LNER railcars and found that what I had stumbled upon was a Diagram 89 Sentinel car (1928). It's different from the NuCast kit and, I suspect, scratch built. They were numerous and widespread. I could run one on CA if spinning the period forward for the odd running session. This one, Eclipse, seems to have spent her entire working life at Hull Botanic Gardens, so quite why (on the side not shown) the destination is 'Darlington' is not known!

 

Apart from repairing the steps, there does not seem to be a lot wrong with it and I am lost to its charms. 

 

 

 

 

Another Dia.89!

Until your post  mine was the only one I'd seen.

 

 

As with a number of my 'earlier period' models it could do with some re-work, but at the moment it is stuck in a bay platform in consequence of an undiagnosed track wiring problem.

More work to be scheduled!

Edited December 18, 2023 by drmditch

[Schooner]

Not much, but just found these on the desktop and might as well share. Current working version, main alterations to the 'sorting yard' bit of BM:

[16Brunel]

Just wondering what the WNR's policy is regarding engines entering carriage sheds?  I know they're usually banned from goods sheds.

 

- Scott

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, 16Brunel said:

Just wondering what the WNR's policy is regarding engines entering carriage sheds?  I know they're usually banned from goods sheds.

 

- Scott

 

I don't see that they need to. A prototype point, but as the purpose of carriage sheds is to keep carriages nice, I imagine the last thing one would want is to send a dirty steam engine in there to pollute with trapped smoke. With goods sheds I imagine it's as much the fire risk as the risk of spoiling the goods.

 

So, what about that coach at the far end of the shed? Did men/horses wheel these out to within reach of an engine?

 

I surmise that Brother Schooner's plan shows cassettes stored beyond the carriage shed, however, there only need to be two cassette roads, one for each route north out of the station:

 

One that will need to accommodate engine and train cassettes up to 4 1/2 ' (54") for the mainline to Birchoverham Next the Sea, and that would also be used for much shorter Birchoverham Staith branch trains. This is is the one along the shed wall; and,

 

One for the Fakeney branch, which would be at the front of the baseboard. 

 

The carriage shed acts as a view blocker, not cassette access, so the sidings terminate at the end of the shed.  

[16Brunel]

It's not the far end of the BM carriage shed that confuses me, it's the kick-back siding sticking out the front of it, alongside the carriage shed access line and parallel to the main line.  Rope/horse/pinch bar shunting?  Just querying its purpose, beyond view-blocking said main line

 

- Scott

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, 16Brunel said:

It's not the far end of the BM carriage shed that confuses me, it's the kick-back siding sticking out the front of it, alongside the carriage shed access line and parallel to the main line.  Rope/horse/pinch bar shunting?  Just querying its purpose, beyond view-blocking said main line

 

- Scott

 

Understood, you know, I had the same thought and tried to imagine how that would be worked ... and falied.

 

I would have just put a single turnout to form a second siding in the shed, without the kick back. Of course, then I worry that I am missing something obvious!

 

Over to Brother Schooner on that one

[16Brunel]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Of course, then I worry that I am missing something obvious!

 

I'm also wondering if I've missed something!

- S.

[Schooner]

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Over to Brother Schooner on that one

Thoughts behind that formation were, in no particular order

• It's possible - as with so many of the options presented in that plan, it's a 'maximum winkie' iteration which may or may not suit when the time comes to build.
• It's prototypical - a pretty common set up, I assume to aid shuffling things round inside the shed?
• It's practical - albeit with an obvious caveat, in that gives some storage space for stock which you'd like to see/be aware of but not necessarily in frequent use. Secondary purpose is that any tall stock* in that siding would indeed help mask the cassette behind (and yet be easily moved for changing loco cassettes etc).

That caveat is the dubious loco working. This wouldn't be an issue for me, cos I don't have too much of a problem with a rare finger-shunt to roll any stock in that siding back into the shed for loco access, can't see it's much different from a couple stout lads with a pinch bar, but we'll all have our on spot on the spectrum for this.

 

*Breakdown train? Or perhaps some sort of works siding, with a small gantry crane to hoik up a carriage whilst wheelsets were being worked on etc. Not very realistic, and IIRC all that carry on is meant to take place at Aching Constable, but the kickback allows for that sort of masking scene if desired.

 

 

Re a 'through' shed to cassettes, again just floating it as an option, really. As shown each shed road could take 2 x Genesis 6-wheelers or 3 x 4 wheelers (assuming they're okay to stick out a bit); total capacity 4 x 6-wheels or 6 x 4 wheels. If this is enough, then woop woop! If a 'longer' shed would be useful it could have some sort of removable partition or black cloth or just be simply left open at the back and the lines run direct into cassettes. This would give a carriage shed able to house every single bit of passenger stock the WNR can lay its collective hands on. Useful? Dunno, but I can see that it might be!

 

One could go the other way, and have the whole length scenic to give a longer shed...but I think it might look a bit weird with the cassette slot at the front and be a bit of a pain to use the cassettes at the rear? Anyway, it might not be worth it either way if the carriage shed just to hold a branch strengthener or two.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Schooner
Sp.

[Edwardian]

35 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Thoughts behind that formation were, in no particular order

• It's possible - as with so many of the options presented in that plan, it's a 'maximum winkie' iteration which may or may not suit when the time comes to build.
• It's prototypical - a pretty common set up, I assume to aid shuffling things round inside the shed?
• It's practical - albeit with an obvious caveat, in that gives some storage space for stock which you'd like to see/be aware of but not necessarily in frequent use. Secondary purpose is that any tall stock* in that siding would indeed help mask the cassette behind (and yet be easily moved for changing loco cassettes etc).

That caveat is the dubious loco working. This wouldn't be an issue for me, cos I don't have too much of a problem with a rare finger-shunt to roll any stock in that siding back into the shed for loco access, can't see it's much different from a couple stout lads with a pinch bar, but we'll all have our on spot on the spectrum for this.

 

Yes, keeping access at that end to the rear cassette road is vital to allow the loco casstte of a returning service to be placed.

 

35 minutes ago, Schooner said:

 

*Breakdown train? Or perhaps some sort of works siding, with a small gantry crane to hoik up a carriage whilst wheelsets were being worked on etc. Not very realistic, and IIRC all that carry on is meant to take place at Aching Constable, but the kickback allows for that sort of masking scene if desired.

 

Logically, yes, Aching Constable, besides, Brother Compound says I'm not allowed one of thes 'cos my railway isn't important enough ...

 

 

35 minutes ago, Schooner said:

 

Re a 'through' shed to cassettes, again just floating it as an option, really. As shown each shed road could take 2 x Genesis 6-wheelers or 3 x 4 wheelers (assuming they're okay to stick out a bit); total capacity 4 x 6-wheels or 6 x 4 wheels. If this is enough, then woop woop! If a 'longer' shed would be useful it could have some sort of removable partition or black cloth or just be simply left open at the back and the lines run direct into cassettes. This would give a carriage shed able to house every single bit of passenger stock the WNR can lay its collective hands on. Useful? Dunno, but I can see that it might be!

 

One could go the other way, and have the whole length scenic to give a longer shed...but I think it might look a bit weird with the cassette slot at the front and be a bit of a pain to use the cassettes at the rear? Anyway, it might not be worth it either way if the carriage shed just to hold a branch strengthener or two.

 

 

 

 

So, my thought here, ever since the bright idea of a carriage shed was suggested, was to leave clear ground at eithe end of the cassette 'trough' so that a loco in a cassette could be take off one end and place at t'other. 

 

 

Thus, in the case of the scenic end, I thought a masonry wall the height of the cassette side was all the masking I need, and, as discussed, the current plan would be to use the Intentio cassette system:

 

 

Given that this cassette trough is to be a minimum of 54" long, and locos are all under 9", I reckon, if I really wanted I could have a 3' carriage siding, much of which would be the shed!

 

That, however, would be excessive and the thing might be to extend it as far as the shorter cassette trough for the Fakeney branch, located at the front of the baseboard, though I suspect it may need to overlap the carriage shed, the shed thus marking the transition between scenic and non-scenic areas at the front of the layout.

 

The Fakeney branch train is only 21", but one must allow for strengtheners, NPCs etc. An 0-6-0 10 wagons and a brake would seem a generous allowance for the branch. and would be double that at 42".

 

The minimum length I think I'd want for the carriage shed itself would be the 17" required to accommodate the Fakeney branch set, the other road accommodating a couple of extra thirds and a luggage brake or van or two. 

 

I would probably plump for something in the region of 21" for the carriage shed, which would give me room for 5 short 4-wheel passenger carriages on each siding.

 

[Schooner]

In case it's of use, Redux embossed self adhesive brickwork inexpertly stuck on Intentio cassette sides:

 

 

It might be easier/safer to have some low ground clutter to mask the edge of the trough, and give the cassettes some simple scenic treatment. Only one way to find out...!

 

All else sounds good :) Apart from Killjoy Compound, obvs. 

 

Edit: Also just visible is the 12" latched folding bracket on which my cassettes sit when in use. It's just crossed my mind that this might be a nice little cheat for you to add 12" possible supported cassette length from time to time - as for strengthened Fakeney services, or unusually long goods services. It would only impinge the doorway for the moments when in use, and then could be dropped down out of the way.

 

Also also, I've used the same 12" (305mm) bracket to support Intentio 'Super' cassettes (670mm) full of whitemetal kit wagons, with only the rail joiners to secure in place. I wouldn't make a habit of it - it's asking for trouble - but there hasn't been a single issue to date. In time I'm going to fit some locating magnets to give peace of mind.

 

HTH

Edited December 21, 2023 by Schooner

[Edwardian]

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

In case it's of use, Redux embossed self adhesive brickwork inexpertly stuck on Intentio cassette sides:

 

 

It might be easier/safer to have some low ground clutter to mask the edge of the trough, and give the cassettes some simple scenic treatment. Only one way to find out...!

 

That looks great. I really like the idea of making the cassette walls scenic.  It is the perfect solution when using a small number of cassettes, perhaps to a standard length, or where you are driving onto a scenic cassette from a fiddle yard etc. which you will then move. 

 

You will understand this, but for clarity, I will explain: The WNR mainline will need a separate wall because of the number of different cassettes and the need to shunt them around. Thus, train leaves BM, runs first onto a long train cassette with a shorter loco cassette at the far end. Both train and loco cassettes will be of differing length. There may be 3-4 'classes' of train cassettes, 2-3 for locos. The next service will see a shorter loco cassette placed at the scenic end, with the train cassette behind. Locos are turned in the cassette handling, trains are not.  

 

Here is the sort of thing I had in mind. I estimate it's about 6' tall.  With foundations in a built up verge, we can add a bit of height, and the Intentio cassette sides will start a little below scenic ground level, so there or there abouts I would guess. 

 

 

So, let's consider train/cassette lengths.

 

I suspect all mainline passenger locos we are likely to see will be accommodated within a 9" cassette.  Assuming a 54" cassette trough, that leaves 45" for the train.

 

A 45" cassette, nearly 4', seems less than ideal, but they do not need to be turned. They are lifted up and down, but not swung about!

 

Nevertheless, this must be at the outer limits of what may be workable.

 

Is it enough?

 

Well, a rake of 6 31' 6-wheelers, such as might represent a WNR express, would take up around 35".  If companies are using 32'-34' carriages, e.g. a 6-coach GER or GNR train, 37" would be taken up. If a cassette of 45" is used, there is room to add either a seventh coach, or make the sixth a short bogie coach, or add a couple of short NPCs, such as a horse box and carriage truck.  

 

There are potentially up to 8 passenger trains that would require the maximum 45" length cassettes: 4 WNR Norwich and Bury sets, 2 GER services, one GNR and one Midland.

 

Most passenger trains would be far shorter. The planned M&GNR service is 5 coaches, and a mix of 4 and 6 wheelers. I might have a similarly composed shorter GER service, more local than the two ex-London express portions, something off the GER's West Norfolk Extension Railway. There would be local WNR services of a similar length and then even shorter branch services. Thus, we can assume 2-3 further standard lengths for passenger train cassettes.   

 

In terms of goods, the longest goods locomotive on the WNR is a shade over 7", so we should have 8" cassettes for the goods locos. If we have 46" cassettes for mainline goods, and use a mix of 16' o/b and 15' o/b types of the period, but mainly the latter, we allow for up to 14 wagons, 13 if something longer like bolsters or machinery trucks is included, plus one of the short WNR brake vans. It does not sound a lot, for more 'mainline' companies I would aspire to minimum 15-20 wagon goods trains, but I guess 13-14 is reasonable for the WNR. 

 

All this takes us into the realm of custom length cassettes from Intentio (if they can make cassettes as long as 1168.4mm when their 'super' length is 607mm; I mean, will it bow at nearly double their maximum standard length cassette?), and involves me in the fact that they are annoyingly metric, but I will cope!

 

Ultimately, whether we have cassettes, traversers or fiddle yard sidings, practical necessity dictates that we all have to set some artificial limit to our train lengths. As a minor line pre-Grouping layout in 4mil, using predominately 4 and 6-wheel stock, the WNR really ought to be able to live within the constraint of a 45"/46" maximum train length. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

All else sounds good :) Apart from Killjoy Compound, obvs. 

 

Well, he's not wrong, but reality is nevertheless irksome!

 

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

Edit: Also just visible is the 12" latched folding bracket on which my cassettes sit when in use. It's just crossed my mind that this might be a nice little cheat for you to add 12" possible supported cassette length from time to time - as for strengthened Fakeney services, or unusually long goods services. It would only impinge the doorway for the moments when in use, and then could be dropped down out of the way.

 

So that's a good idea. Rethinking it last night, I reckon 6-7 wagons plus brake and tank engine is a reasonable average goods service for Fakeney, so I might go for 3', which allows 8 wagons, brake and tender 0-6-0. Any extension flap would accommodate exceptional traffic.

 

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

Also also, I've used the same 12" (305mm) bracket to support Intentio 'Super' cassettes (670mm) full of whitemetal kit wagons, with only the rail joiners to secure in place. I wouldn't make a habit of it - it's asking for trouble - but there hasn't been a single issue to date. In time I'm going to fit some locating magnets to give peace of mind.

 

HTH

 

Brave

[Schooner]

End-of-day brain, so forgive any idiocy, but a few thoughts as the occur:

 

Wall plans sound sensible, and looks like a lovely example to use. I suspect a useful height will make itself known come build, but that seems like the right ballpark.

 

I'm away from home atm but I can grab some numbers (loaded weight, flex etc) for the cassettes when back if helpful - I can't remember if you have any on hand.

 

Also away from a computer, so what follows is guestimate only:

 

The last design posted made allowance for a 36" Fakeney cassette trough and 66" for the main line. The useful bit of this is that I'm sure there's length enough for an extended carriage shed to take the Fakeney set and the proposed cassettes, which is good.

 

Add in the option for an occasional 12" boost as desired/required and I think that's all looking pretty doable. The cassettes themselves...only Intentio know! 

 

Passenger rakes are to be (semi-) permanently coupled? There's no mileage in breaking trains down into off-the-shelf cassette lengths?

 

Long cassettes could be easily (if not cheaply) stiffened with L bar, sure that alone won't be a deal breaker. My 3' long 7mm cassettes (not Intentio) are due for delivery before long, if they're unmanagable I'll report back...but I'm sure I've seen reference to cassettes of up to 6' being reasonable to wield.

 

Ummmm what else...oh, yeah, goods train length. I've read, 'tho forget where, apologies, of a layout at least WNR size which included 'scale length' goods trains behind a 28xx. Long story short, these were steadily reduced over time to 20-25 wagons for representing 'long goods trains'. Moral of the story is that I think the WNR won't look deprived if this is about your max train length.

 

And brave yes...possibly even foolish. Mitigations are the very solid landing the cassette has where joins the baseboard proper, and that I've canted the bracket slightly so trains run uphill by a degree or two on the cassette. With those in place I never had any concerns with the security of the long cassettes or their stock. Even so, this was for stress-testing only and those cassettes are for storage and not regular use.

 

/transmission ends.