Castle Aching

[Poggy1165]

I am about as English as it is possible to be, but when I researched my family history I was soon to discover that I have both Welsh and Irish lines. The Irish people came from Connacht, before the Famine, the most Irish and Catholic part of Ireland. (Indeed it is where the English parliament (not Cromwell) decreed the Catholic population should be made to live.) I find this quite amusing, as the family, in my lifetime anyway, have always been notably Protestant. Indeed one of my ancestors co-founded a non-Conformist chapel in Cheshire and another fought for Parliament in the Civil War.

 

So yes, I suspect we are all a big mix of different supposed ethnic groups. I say 'supposed' because I am convinced that people who go on about being 'Celtic' or 'Anglo-Saxon' are massively deluded.

 

To get back at least somewhere near the topic, I think railways were a big factor in mixing us all up and doing away with local gene pools. Not just via travel, either. One grandfather was fetched from Cheshire and the other from Nottingham to work in Gorton for the GCR. (Indeed, but for the GCR and Adolf Hitler I should almost certainly not exist.)

[Edwardian]

Edwardian tries to regain his Sense of Proportion...

 

As Castle Aching Parishioners may know, I went through a patch of feeling somewhat overwhelmed by the task ahead.  I am glad to say that, following construction of the first board, I have settled down and now feel that this 25% of the layout, at least, will come together before too long.

 

One of the features, well, the feature of this board is the castle atop its mound. Mr Phil Sutters, parishioner, kindly donated a very splendid round tower.  As a Norman Keep or Donjon, CA was supposed to boast a square job, but I thought it worth giving it a go. 

 

You will see from the picture below that Phil's tower really dominates the mound and is really too large. 

 

The rectangular card piece is what I had thought would be the tower.  You can see from the comparison pictures how much larger the round tower is than the rectangular. 

 

The round tower is designed for 28mm wargames. I realised that I need something closer to 3mm scale and that, in fact, my rectangular tower is also too large.

 

The round tower will find service as a 28mm wargames piece, as, indeed, its maker intended, and as was the back-up plan. 

 

In the meantime, back to the drawing board ....

 

[Compound2632]

Is it to be ruinous or inhabited or a bit of both?

[Nearholmer]

You could control the visual mass by having it in "background" scale, or by having it partly crumbled, or both.

 

Thinking of a few castles, the original keep at Warwick, the interestingly knocked-about-by-Cromwell one at Bridgnorth, or the vestigial one at Berkhamsted could provide models of varying kinds.

 

Here is the obvious song https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y2L-nFuZC-k

 

K

[Edwardian]

Is it to be ruinous or inhabited or a bit of both?

 

Not inhabited, ruinous (no floors or roof I should think) but most of it fairly intact.

 

I think I've cracked scale, but having a re-think of the design.  The template was a 14th Century fortification, which I thought was picturesque, but I want to go back to the Norman original.

 

The problem with mounds, mottes, is that they often didn't take kindly to having heavy stone keeps built on them in place of the wooden originals.

 

Quite often you get a circular wall on top instead, but I believe there were some keeps on mottes.

 

 

You could control the visual mass by having it in "background" scale, or by having it partly crumbled, or both.

 

Thinking of a few castles, the original keep at Warwick, the interestingly knocked-about-by-Cromwell one at Bridgnorth, or the vestigial one at Berkhamsted could provide models of varying kinds.

 

Here is the obvious song https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y2L-nFuZC-k

 

K

 

Good old Marie Lloyd - "history with pubs on the way"!

 

Anyway, at Castle Acre there was a stone keep atop the Motte, but it is not extant.  It seems to have been a relatively low mound and they solved the problem by digging very deep foundations, effectively hollowing out the hill.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Edwardian

[mullie]

I think the last post offers a solution. Perhaps lower the mound or spread it across a wider area? Perhaps ruins rather than a more or less complete structure might be more balanced. Thinking about such places there often isn't a lot left unless you have the space for a keep such as that at Castle Hedingham (model in low relief?) which could take up a lot of room. You could just suggest earth works as at Maiden Castle or Pleshey.

 

Martyn

[Compound2632]

Anyway, at Castle Acre there was a stone keep atop the Motte, but it is not extant.  It seems to have been a relatively low mound and they solved the problem by digging very deep foundations, effectively hollowing out the hill.

 

That motte seems hardly to rise above the surrounding ground - it seems to be all ditch - but maybe it's the angle.

 

I know some folk called Mott - they live in a gated mansion. I'm a Bailey on my paternal grandmother's side - they were the low-class folk who lived with the livestock in the enclosure at the bottom of the mound.

[Nearholmer]

Something rising above the mound is going to be needed to get the visual flow right. Ahern somehow managed it, punctuating without dominating, and one of Rice's book has an idea based on Clun that uses it, too.

 

K

[Edwardian]

I think the last post offers a solution. Perhaps lower the mound or spread it across a wider area? Perhaps ruins rather than a more or less complete structure might be more balanced. Thinking about such places there often isn't a lot left unless you have the space for a keep such as that at Castle Hedingham (model in low relief?) which could take up a lot of room. You could just suggest earth works as at Maiden Castle or Pleshey.

 

Martyn

 

Thing is, I've just got the mound just the way I want it!!!!

 

Last seen, the mound was flocked.  This needed to be toned down, to reflect distance and the soft colours of CA.  This I did by wafting white spray paint over it.

 

Today was all about making the grass shorter outside the house, whilst making it longer inside with static grass.

 

This, I felt, worked well.  I worked from front to rear, gradually lightening the colour as I went to evoke a sense of distance. Then I added some verdant long grass at the front.

 

Geoff and Burt are impressed at the relatively small pile that did not adhere.

 

Problem is, I do not want to wreck the mound now!

 

Something rising above the mound is going to be needed to get the visual flow right. Ahern somehow managed it, punctuating without dominating, and one of Rice's book has an idea based on Clun that uses it, too.

 

K

 

I agree. 

 

I include a reconstruction of Castle Acre c.1175.

 

My cunning plan is to reduce my template to 80% of its previous size at the front and 75% at the rear, so the building will be built in perspective.  Trying it on the mound, I think its getting there.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Edwardian

[Northroader]

If you find stone towers are a problem from fitting in the scale, why not a motte with some large trees. Example is Bampton, Devon.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bampton+castle&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=minv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0r9L36bjTAhUIL8AKHRtoAOEQ_AUICCgC&biw=1024&bih=704#imgrc=tn5YL0Rm6rFBhM:

Edited April 22, 2017 by Northroader

[Nearholmer]

Always hard to judge from a photo, but I think the size shown in 3184 is certainly small enough not to over-dominate; it may actually be too small, but colour might play a part.

 

I had a quick check, and Ahern seems to have cheated, by having his castle sort of emerge from the roofscape, with barely any visible mound, but it creates the impression that there is a mound. It's one of them there clever tricks that artistic people is able to pull, which wouldn't even occur to a literalist like me!

[webbcompound]

there are two bits on top of the motte at Castle Acre, a square keep, and a curtain wall. This view of Totness suggests a solution. just have the low curtain wall.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by webbcompound

[Compound2632]

there are two bits on top of the motte at Castle Acre, a square keep, and a curtain wall. This view of Totness suggests a solution. just have the low curtain wall.

 

totnes.jpg

 

Looks like the ultimate in private putting greens!

 

In the reconstruction of Castle Acre c1175, the curtain wall seems to be higher up the mound than Edwardian's notorious ring of druidical sacrificial standing stones?

Edited April 22, 2017 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

PS: try sticking a flagpole, with a red flag, on top of it. That will draw the eye upwards and to a stop, and might make the visual sweep work.

[Edwardian]

Looks like the ultimate in private putting greens!

 

In the reconstruction of Castle Acre c1175, the curtain wall seems to be higher up the mound than Edwardian's notorious ring of druidical sacrificial standing stones?

 

Yes, it is. I decided to have a taller mound and to site the wall at the base of the mound, inside the ditch, instead.  

 

 

Always hard to judge from a photo, but I think the size shown in 3184 is certainly small enough not to over-dominate; it may actually be too small, but colour might play a part.

 

I had a quick check, and Ahern seems to have cheated, by having his castle sort of emerge from the roofscape, with barely any visible mound, but it creates the impression that there is a mound. It's one of them there clever tricks that artistic people is able to pull, which wouldn't even occur to a literalist like me!

 

The picture in 3184 is of the newly reduced rectangular tower. It will change and grow a bit in order to become something Norman. 

 

The ultimate inspiration for CA is the Madder Valley scene, but you are correct in saying that it is not on an apparent mound.

 

It is pretty prominent, though, from whatever angle.  I realised, though, that a street leading up to the castle was not something I had come across in Norfolk, hence the Norman Motte and Bailey configuration chosen.

 

But let us just enjoy the work of Mr Ahern for a moment ....

[phil_sutters]

If you want a smallish ruin you could look at Lewes Castle. Made from flint to a large extent, the soft outline of the top of the keep walls is probably down to erosion from the winds blowing up The Ouse Valley.

Edited April 22, 2017 by phil_sutters

[St Enodoc]

Thing is, I've just got the mound just the way I want it!!!!

 

Last seen, the mound was flocked.  This needed to be toned down, to reflect distance and the soft colours of CA.  This I did by wafting white spray paint over it.

 

Today was all about making the grass shorter outside the house, whilst making it longer inside with static grass.

 

This, I felt, worked well.  I worked from front to rear, gradually lightening the colour as I went to evoke a sense of distance. Then I added so verdant long grass at the front.

 

Geoff and Burt are impressed at the relatively small pile that did not adhere.

 

Problem is, I do not want to wreck the mound now!

 

 

I agree. 

 

I include a reconstruction of Castle Acre c.1175.

 

My cunning plan is to reduce my template to 80% of its previous size at the front and 75% at the rear, so the building will be built in perspective.  Trying it on the mound, I think its getting there.

To me, the last photo in this set (the one with the cardboard mock-up) looks just right.

[Edwardian]

Meanwhile, back in Norfolk, there are certain features of Norman castles in the County, and doubtless other places, too, that I don't want to stray too far from.

 

I have looked at the features of prototype sites and fiddled with them, so that castle Aching will not be an exact match for any one castle, but, I hope, might be a reasonably plausible variation.

 

Take Castle Acre.  If you push the inner bailey gates out from the ditch just a little, then you've room for the houses on the future Bailey Street.  This gets you a nice semi-circle of houses round the base of the mound, like we see, for instance, at Totnes.  A Norfolk example would be Thetford.

 

As mentioned already, I have a taller mound and have elected to push the curtain wall to the base of the hill.

 

Webbcompound makes an entirely sound suggestion, however, I think I would prefer something taller, and more keep-like, to a high circular curtain wall at the top of the mound.

 

Thetford's earthworks are most impressive, but there appears to be no evidence of any stone construction. New Buckenham had a stone keep on the mound, rather than a wall, but, unusually, it was a circular keep. Horsford seems to have had a stone keep on a low motte. Mileham, apparently, had a square stone keep on a motte flanked by two concentric baileys.  The keep's foundations are still extant; described as a great 50 foot square stone tower.

 

Castle Acre was particularly grand, reflecting the status of the Warennes as Earls of Surrey.  The Fitz-Achings were not so grand.  Castle Acre had a Norman country house converted into a keep.

 

On a relatively high motte, I suggest that any stone keep would need to be fairly modest in size.

 

The ideal model, as it turns out, is the one spotted by Kevin.

[Edwardian]

If you want a smallish ruin you could look at Lewes Castle. Made from flint to a large extent, the soft outline of the top of the keep walls is probably down to erosion from the winds blowing up The Ouse Valley.

Lewes Castle 23 7 2014 the Keep from the East.jpg

 

That is a good thought.  The asymmetrical look, with the small tower to one side, is a very attractive arrangement.

 

 

To me, the last photo in this set (the one with the cardboard mock-up) looks just right.

 

Thank you. That is my revised template, at 80% of the original size tapering to 75%.  It should be a little wider, as there were corner towers to add in my original (now abandoned) 14th C design, but a Norman keep of similar dimensions is probably what I should aim for.

 

The original template is right in the picture below.  The smaller version using perspective is left.  It is the left-hand one you saw on pictured the mound, so I am encouraged that you think it looks about right..

Edited April 22, 2017 by Edwardian

[Donw]

Looking at the picture I presume having the curtain wall a good way up the slope was quite effective. Trying to mount an attack on a wall up a steep slope would not have been easy. However the effectiveness as a defence is not the issue which is getting it to look right. Launceston Castle is an interesting example with a later round tower built inside the remains of the original. There do seems to be all sort of designs but perhaps not use in Norfolk. Devizes which is actually a victorian rebuild was originally a motte and baily type and has the very useful fact that the railway tunnelled underneath the grounds. Wiston Castle in Wales feature a fairly low keep (but no lower wall). It does seem likely that one abandoned fairly early would likely be small whereas those occupied often were added to over the centuries.

I feel a round tower would be less imposing than a square one and hence suit better. It also seems as though trail and error with paper mock ups may be the best solution.

 

Don

[TheQ]

A little more ruinous i present.

Ludgershall castle, which had originally a smaller tower but with external buildings inside the inner area, Which is why I've posted it.

It has two concentric ditches and the inner one is effectively part way up the motte. The whole thing is a rebuild of the remains of a iron age hill fort.

Until the late 1960s only the remains of the tower were showing until it was excavated.

In its later royal use it was more a hunting lodge during which the buildings expanded over the inner ditch.( See drawing)

Although less rounded and flatter topped it still dominated the village (medieval town that returned MPs )

Carefully clipped off the photos (to the left of the last photo) is the manor farm which still is inside the inner defences, most of the old village is built from stolen stone.

Edited April 23, 2017 by TheQ

[Edwardian]

All much food for thought. 

 

First point - I am not sure that Castle Aching's mound is larger or taller than that of Castle Acre.  It is a little hard to judge, I find, having built it is perspective!  Castle Aching's keep is envisagesd as more modest than castle Acre.  The other difference , and this may effect the perception of the size of the motte, is that the curtain wall is higher up the slope at Castle Acre.  Should I move mine up the hill?

 

Second  point - I remain wedded to the idea of something rectangular, as that really says "Norman" for me, and I like the mound as it is.  I suspect it depends upon the stability of the motte.  Some, to me, obviously artificial mounds appear to bear quite substantial stone structures, e.g. Clifford's Tower in York. In Norfolk, Theford had a very impressive motte, and was a prestige site, but there appears no evidence of stone used for the keep. 

 

On the other hand, what about Norwich?  Is the motte a natural feature, or is it wholly or in part artificial?  It boasts a large stone place-keep. I would not say the motte here is any lower than mine, just much, much wider.  Again, I note the curtain wall was located higher up the slope. As Donw notes, there were probably sound defensive reasons for doing so.

 

By the way, the castle was built in Caen stone but refaced in Bath stone in the 1830s, but the new work almost exactly replicated the Norman pattern of blind arcading, so it give, perhaps, an idea of what a Norman castle looked like when new!

Edited April 23, 2017 by Edwardian

[TheQ]

I know when they built Norwich Castle Mall, by digging out the old cattle market, when the "fill" was removed, they said it was the first time old houses from each side saw each other for several hundred years.

From what i have read Norwich castle is part built on a natural ridge of land, part raised motte with the ridge cut and deepened where the mall now is, to form a more effective motte.

Edited April 23, 2017 by TheQ

[Donw]

The Normans weren't daft they used natural features wherever they would help. Chepstow Castle uses the Limestone cliffs on the Wye to great effect but that was a much bigger affair. The use of a Motte made sense in the situation both here and on the continent the Normans were conquering and needed to consolidate their gains. Many were originally timber built keeps on a large mound or hill and could be done fairly quickly. Someone would be installed as the local squire to keep the peasants under control.  The timber keeps were at risk from fire so many were rebuilt in stone. 

Although I suspect a higher curtain wall might be more likely I am not sure visually it would work as well the castle could excessively dominate the village. 

 

Don

[Northroader]

Here's one that's not on the tourist trail, and it doesn't exist anymore in any case, small square tower not too dominant. In this case linked to b&w Manor House, presumably Lady SWMBO said "if you think I'm going to live in that draughty old hole any longer, etc etc..." https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dawley+castle&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=minv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTjru-i7rTAhUmLsAKHd5WB8wQ_AUICCgC&biw=1024&bih=704#imgrc=tjiZjLWXZA7_LM: