Castle Aching

[Nearholmer]

Why?

 

As in, why is resilience necessary between track and board?

 

People seem very keen on including it, but I'm less and less sure why resilience.

 

In some environments, sound-suppression is needed, but some lightweight 00 trains, ticking across a layout in an outhouse isn't the same as what some of my pals have: rattle old tin plate thundering around in the spare bedroom.

 

K

[ianLMS]

My underlay was purely for aesthetics so I could try to get a shoulder to the ballast.

 

To reduce the noise from loco's, I have read on here that you will probably get more benefit from putting in sound deadening material (foam/polystyrene/egg boxes etc) under the board in the voids between the cross members. I can see how hollow space under baseboards probably amplifies the sound so it looks like a good theory! Carpet on the floor probably helps absorb sound as well.

 

Failing that, tell the family to turn up the TV or get back to vacuuming - no longer an issue!!!!

 

Ian

[runs as required]

.. lightweight 00 trains, ticking across a layout in an outhouse ...

"Shurely shome mishtake !"

What sort of scale speed are we talking of - on ash ballast ?

dh

[Edwardian]

"Shurely shome mishtake !"

What sort of scale speed are we talking of - on ash ballast ?

dh

 

No mistake, Kevin still runs on clockwork ....

[Nearholmer]

It is true that I do sometimes declare "clockwork week", but it only takes a week to rediscover why electricity became popular.

 

What I was really thinking of, though, was the ticking of steel wheels over rail joints only a scale 30ft apart.

 

Staggered joints, or aligned joints, that is the question. Practice varied.

 

K

Edited September 26, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Here are pictures of the ballast on my layout using the "scale 4mm" stuff - it has a reddish brown tint to it which I quite like and probably suitable for layouts in North Yorks/Cumbria area. I will check tonight and let you know what colour I purchased. Fixed it down using the standard pva/water/washing up liquid mix - however, I have found that Duluxe Materials Ballast Bond is superb stuff!! Ready mixed, just spray water on the ballast and dribble the solution over it and walk away for a few hours. Very strong and no issues with mixing a solution that's too weak, allowing the ballast to become loose again! trust me - been there, done that!

 

As with all my ballast, ground cover I weather it using a variety of weathering powders, pigments, washes and ash/coal dust.

 

The wagon sidings was ballasted using ash from my open fire covered over a DAS clay layer pushed in between the sleepers and across the tracks. This may be more suitable for CA and the period you are modeling. Stone in this part of the country tends to be flint or chalk - neither much use for ballasting track with but great for buildings. Any granite/limestone type materials had to be shipped/carted in I guess.

 

A few pics here might help with your search: http://www.suffolktouristguide.com/Lost-Railways-of-Suffolk-and-East-Anglia.asp - the one of Worstead (nr Norwich/Wroxham) looks like it is ballasted with stone chippings and the pic circa's around 1905.

 

Lovely colours and textures, there, both on the running lines and in the yard.

[Hesperus]

My head is starting to hurt as I try to think through what comes next.

 

Electrickery

 

Every time I see an article that seeks to explain how to wire a point, or "change the polarity", I do, honestly, try to follow it.  Unfortunately, I can derive no sense from any writings on the subject, as, so far as I am concerned, I am a peasant from the Dark Ages and electricity is magic.

 

Do any wiring issues influence how the points are constructed?

 

Point operation?

 

This seems to require some measure of forward planning, as a hole of some dimension or other must be provided below the point.

 

Motors?  This would add considerably to the cost and complexity, and, of course, they are operated by magic, so I should probably just forget about them.

 

But then, do hand-built points need a motor to keep the blades in position?

 

I often hear of "wire and tube" and, while the basic concept is simple enough for me to grasp, this method is more often referred to than described in the sort of detail that permits of practical emulation.

 

My wood butchery is not exactly what you would call "precision carpentry", and the points will not be at right angles to the board (not that, truth be told, the boards feature many right angles), so lining up a rod to operate them from the front of the board seems ambitious.

 

Wiring handbuilt points is fairly simple, you simply devide the area into 3. The first area is always on the left of the loco, the second is always on the right.  The 3rd area is either on the left or the right depending on which way the point is set.  Assuming that you are using pcb sleepers you will need to cut or file an insulation gap on each sleeper where it passes from one area to the next. 

 

I have built my points with a bicycle spoke passing through the tiebar to a spdt (single pole double throw) switch, this is a switch with 3 contacts on the bottom.  There is a centre contact which connects to one of the end contacts at a time.  You simply wire the 3rd area (frog and surround) to the centre contact and the 1st and 2nd areas to the side contacts (the right way round) so that when you change the point the 3rd area changes polarity.

 

Things to note are that you will need an insulation gap between both rails of the 3rd area (point frog) and any plain track it connects to.

 

A DPDT switch would work just as well,  you just ignore half the contacts.

 

I have limited experiance of 'wire in tube' but it worked well and was more or less free.  I used short lengths of mains electricity cable with the copper wire pulled out as tubes with 0.8mm welding wire inside them and this seemed to work well on a very small layout.  I think it would be hard to pull the copper out of anything more than a foot long though.

[nick_bastable]

may I suggest you treat yourself to this   http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/trackbook/

 

although aimed at the 2mm crowd there is an awful lot of information which can help other scales

 

Nick

[Caley Jim]

may I suggest you treat yourself to this   http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/trackbook/

 

although aimed at the 2mm crowd there is an awful lot of information which can help other scales

I was just about to advise the same.  The book will also tell you how track 'works', which will help you to understand the intricacies of check- and wing-rail clearances etc. as well as giving you the proper terminology for the various parts of a turnout.  There are also sections on turnout control and electrical connections.

 

If your turnouts are not all at right angles to the baseboard edge (are anybody's?), the simplest way to operate them is by means of a single pole/double throw (SPDT) slider switch with a wire-in-tube link to the stretcher bar of the turnout (the bit that links the tips of the two switches).  You wire the crossing area to the centre connector of the switch and one stock rail to each of the other two connectors.  When you move the SPDT switch you not only move the (rail) switches, but also change the polarity of the crossing accordingly.

 

Wire-in-tube simply means a stiffish wire linking the operating device (the SPDT switch in this case) to the stretcher bar and running through a tube which guides in around corners.  MSE sell packs of nickel silver wire and PTFE tubing for this purpose.  You could also look at this forum .

 

Hope this is clear.  If not PM me and I'll send you some diagrams.

 

Jim

[corneliuslundie]

Re FB track spikes - as thy are not actually holding anything down i am faking them with slices of 15 thou square microstrip. Hence the comment about adding them being less exciting than watching paint dry but more fatiguing. I reckon that 40 is the most I can do at a sitting without a break, and that is not very much track. I did try using real spikes (4mm narrow gauge) but that was just as slow and much harder work for no greater visual affect.

And yes, each piece of rail, so usually the same number each side.

Another option for switching rhe crossing is small microswitches which are very cheap and reliable. They just need something to push the arm in when the polarity needs changing.

Jonathan

[Caley Jim]

Another option for switching rhe crossing is small microswitches which are very cheap and reliable. They just need something to push the arm in when the polarity needs changing.

 

Agreed, however that involve a bit more complexity at the turnout end and I was trying to work on the KISS* principle for our friend.

 

*Keep It Simple, Stupid!

 

Jim

[ianLMS]

In terms of this thread, anything discussed yesterday is old and you all have moved onto ten different other topics, but I need to go back to the ballast!!! As promised I checked last night and the Green Scene's ballast I used is the 4mm Light Grey - GS409.

 

Cheers.

Ian

[ianLMS]

Here is a pic of Little Dunham and looking at the clothing, again this would be around the right era. Little Dunham is just the other side of Swaffham, again very close to Castle Acre.

 

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=CmCbKDuN&id=413948F0A2F5B81E7572FD68F0EDA748A211C88D&thid=OIP.CmCbKDuNQxnySbsMkawU1AE9DE&q=pictures+of+swaffham+railway+station&simid=607992870634456698&selectedindex=4&mode=overlay&first=1

 

Ian

[Compound2632]

In terms of this thread, anything discussed yesterday is old and you all have moved onto ten different other topics

 

The establishment of The Pre-Grouping Pedants Weekly topic did look as if it might take some of the pressure off Castle Aching but it looks like we've just ended up with two disconnected locations for our ramblings...

[Edwardian]

Staggered joints, or aligned joints, that is the question. Practice varied.

 

K

 

More complications.  Great!!!!

 

I was just about to advise the same.  The book will also tell you how track 'works', which will help you to understand the intricacies of check- and wing-rail clearances etc. as well as giving you the proper terminology for the various parts of a turnout.  There are also sections on turnout control and electrical connections.

 

If your turnouts are not all at right angles to the baseboard edge (are anybody's?), the simplest way to operate them is by means of a single pole/double throw (SPDT) slider switch with a wire-in-tube link to the stretcher bar of the turnout (the bit that links the tips of the two switches).  You wire the crossing area to the centre connector of the switch and one stock rail to each of the other two connectors.  When you move the SPDT switch you not only move the (rail) switches, but also change the polarity of the crossing accordingly.

 

Wire-in-tube simply means a stiffish wire linking the operating device (the SPDT switch in this case) to the stretcher bar and running through a tube which guides in around corners.  MSE sell packs of nickel silver wire and PTFE tubing for this purpose.  You could also look at this forum .

 

Hope this is clear.  If not PM me and I'll send you some diagrams.

 

Jim

 

 

may I suggest you treat yourself to this   http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/trackbook/

 

although aimed at the 2mm crowd there is an awful lot of information which can help other scales

 

Nick

 

 

Wiring handbuilt points is fairly simple, you simply devide the area into 3. The first area is always on the left of the loco, the second is always on the right.  The 3rd area is either on the left or the right depending on which way the point is set.  Assuming that you are using pcb sleepers you will need to cut or file an insulation gap on each sleeper where it passes from one area to the next. 

 

I have built my points with a bicycle spoke passing through the tiebar to a spdt (single pole double throw) switch, this is a switch with 3 contacts on the bottom.  There is a centre contact which connects to one of the end contacts at a time.  You simply wire the 3rd area (frog and surround) to the centre contact and the 1st and 2nd areas to the side contacts (the right way round) so that when you change the point the 3rd area changes polarity.

 

Things to note are that you will need an insulation gap between both rails of the 3rd area (point frog) and any plain track it connects to.

 

A DPDT switch would work just as well,  you just ignore half the contacts.

 

I have limited experiance of 'wire in tube' but it worked well and was more or less free.  I used short lengths of mains electricity cable with the copper wire pulled out as tubes with 0.8mm welding wire inside them and this seemed to work well on a very small layout.  I think it would be hard to pull the copper out of anything more than a foot long though.

 

 

Helpful, thank you, chaps.

 

 

 

Agreed, however that involve a bit more complexity at the turnout end and I was trying to work on the KISS* principle for our friend.

 

*Keep It Simple, Stupid!

 

Jim

 

Very wise

 

 

The establishment of The Pre-Grouping Pedants Weekly topic did look as if it might take some of the pressure off Castle Aching but it looks like we've just ended up with two disconnected locations for our ramblings...

 

Oh, I don't know, we've been more "on topic" recently, but the Castle Aching Ramblers Society should never lose the 'Right to Roam'

 

In terms of this thread, anything discussed yesterday is old and you all have moved onto ten different other topics, but I need to go back to the ballast!!! As promised I checked last night and the Green Scene's ballast I used is the 4mm Light Grey - GS409.

 

Cheers.

Ian

 

Here is a pic of Little Dunham and looking at the clothing, again this would be around the right era. Little Dunham is just the other side of Swaffham, again very close to Castle Acre.

 

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=CmCbKDuN&id=413948F0A2F5B81E7572FD68F0EDA748A211C88D&thid=OIP.CmCbKDuNQxnySbsMkawU1AE9DE&q=pictures+of+swaffham+railway+station&simid=607992870634456698&selectedindex=4&mode=overlay&first=1

 

Ian

 

No, fear not, we nave not left ballast, but are simply running several discussions simultaneously (as usual).  Having caught up on the helpful point wiring posts, now is the time to return to ballast (Canary yellow locomotives and singles must wait awhile).

 

I do like the Green Scene(s) Light Grey ballast.

 

To gravel or not to gravel, that is the question?

 

A brief survey of some GE stations in Norfolk (and elsewhere in East Anglia) suggests that the GE running lines were already bullhead by the early-mid 1900s, but that ash ballast, often deep over the sleepers, was still very much in evidence.  

 

Might the running lines have had gravel with ash over laid?  Is gravel more evident/ash less evident in the 1910s onward?

 

Well, here is a selection, including a version of the excellent picture of Dunham that you found, which apparently dates from c.1908, some are undated, but feel early 1900s.

 

What do these pictures tell us?

 

Great Eastern Ballast Survey:

[nick_bastable]

to add to your track building problems a awful number of the points appear to be laid on interlacing sleepers

 

Nick

[Edwardian]

to add to your track building problems a awful number of the points appear to be laid on interlacing sleepers

 

Nick

 

That might worry me if I knew what it meant! 

 

The aim is to get a feel of what would be appropriate for a cross-country line in East Anglia in the 1900s in terms of track and ballast.  I do not have to follow GER practice, however, as the WN is an independent line. 

 

I need to collate some pictures of the M&GN, which was only just converting some of its running lines to BH in the early 1900s.  I see the WNR as somewhere between the GE and the MGN in terms of state of the art v. ramshackle antiquated!

[Nearholmer]

I'm sure that learned dissertations have been written about ballast in MRJ or similar, but a couple of 'general knowledge' thoughts:

 

- as the example from the Sevenoaks inquiry highlights, even quite recently not all ballast was good, hard stone, especially in 'sedimentary' places where such stuff is rare and expensive, and with low speeds and light loading, that didn't matter, provided it was free-draining enough to avoid sleeper-rot (which brings up questions about how good the timber/impregnating was);

 

- even good stone was much finer than now, because it had to be to make manual packing feasible. Ballast is shifted mainly using a fork, although I think the actual packing is done with a spade/shovel. A ballast fork is about three times as wide as a garden fork, has long tines that form a shallow bowl, the times being close enough together to lift stones, but far enough apart to let 'fines' fall through, so it has some riddle action, although PWay gangs also used big riddles, propped up at 45 degrees, at which ballast was flung;

 

- to be viable for manual packing, I'd estimate that broken stone has to be no larger than about 1.5 inches, whereas modern, machine packed, ballast is significantly larger, maybe 2.5 inches.

 

So ....... where does the boundary lay between 'gravel' and 'small ballast'? I know not, but I suspect that technically gravel is a natural product, so at least slightly rounded, and hence not marvellous railway ballast.

 

Time to google for an old technical book on PWay? I've got a couple, but one is American and the other written for engineers working "in the colonies", so untrustworthy in this context.

 

You can buy a ballast fork here https://www.speedyservices.com/c1416250-s-all-steel-ballast-fork

Edited September 27, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Guy Rixon]

[interlaced timbers]  might worry me if I knew what it meant! 

 

The aim is to get a feel of what would be appropriate for a cross-country line in East Anglia in the 1900s in terms of track and ballast.  I do not have to follow GER practice, however, as the WN is an independent line. 

 

I need to collate some pictures of the M&GN, which was only just converting some of its running lines to BH in the early 1900s.  I see the WNR as somewhere between the GE and the MGN in terms of state of the art v. ramshackle antiquated!

 

 

Interlacing is where the diverging lines in a turnout each have their own sleepers/timbers. The ends of the timers of one line lie between those of the other. C.f. through timbering, where long timbers support both lines (and are therefore skew to at least one of them).

 

Through timbering is a bit stronger but needs more wood and the individual timbers are harder for the PW gangs to shift. It can also be a bit of a puzzle to position the timbers in a tight formation.

 

Generally, interlaced timbering was the early practice and through timber the later standard.  I would expect PW conventions on a minor railway to lag behind those of the larger companies.

[ianLMS]

Excellent reference pictures there Edwardian - looks like a volcano erupted near Diss in the early 20th Century, or failing that, could it be snow? I think looking at the majority of the photo's I would go with 2mm Green Scene light grey mixed with ash from a lovely open fire, extracted from freshly burnt hardwood logs whilst sipping a fine brandy and puffing on that pipe!

[ChrisN]

I think it was mentioned earlier about ballast over the tops of the timbers.  This practise, I think, was legislated against as it helped rot the timbers and was generally discontinued after 1890, even on the Cambrian.

[Edwardian]

Excellent reference pictures there Edwardian - looks like a volcano erupted near Diss in the early 20th Century, or failing that, could it be snow? I think looking at the majority of the photo's I would go with 2mm Green Scene light grey mixed with ash from a lovely open fire, extracted from freshly burnt hardwood logs whilst sipping a fine brandy and puffing on that pipe!

 

You know, Ian, I think you're right, and I was thinking on much these lines.  Although Green Scenes have carefully scaled their ballast, the photographs and Kevin's comments made me think that any stone ballast might well be finer than might have been common, say, on mainlines post-WW1, and than I should consider the 2mm scale grade.

 

I also think that it should be mixed with/topped with, ash.  Real wood ash would be both economical and satisfying to produce.

 

The sidings/yard/shed loop can be just ash, so it might be worth doing some filling with DAS or similar, although the sleepers I will be using are not very thick/deep.

 

Finally, the reason I favour buff ballast over grey is because I had not seen the Green Scenes light grey, which I very much like the look of!

 

 

I think it was mentioned earlier about ballast over the tops of the timbers.  This practise, I think, was legislated against as it helped rot the timbers and was generally discontinued after 1890, even on the Cambrian.

 

Yes, I would generally agree with that, but something quite fine is overlaying the sleepers at those GER stations, well into the 1900s.

[runs as required]

Generally, interlaced timbering was the early practice and through timber the later standard.  I would expect PW conventions on a minor railway to lag behind those of the larger companies.

Practically there would be a considerable difference in cost between through timbers and (probably second hand) timbers for interlacing. Add to that the need to rot proof them and the difficulty of laying such unwieldy timbers - and then the likelyhood of them twisting and warping over time in situ.

 

I'd say definitely  'no contest' in terms of the WNR's Engineer's prioritising in terms of passengers'  'perceived quality' when he is already maintaining clapped out second user rolling stock.

 

dh

[Edwardian]

Practically there would be a considerable difference in cost between through timbers and (probably second hand) timbers for interlacing. Add to that the need to rot proof them and the difficulty of laying such unwieldy timbers - and then the likelyhood of them twisting and warping over time in situ.

 

I'd say definitely  'no contest' in terms of the WNR's Engineer's prioritising in terms of passengers'  'perceived quality' when he is already maintaining clapped out second user rolling stock.

 

dh

 

I'll have you know the WN have some very modern (well, 1890s) 4 and 6-wheel coaches on order, direct from the manufacturer (as well as a lot of old second-hand tat)!

 

Advertising strapline?

 

"Travel the West Norfolk Railway.  Some of our coaches are only a decade or so old!"

 

Perhaps not.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Edwardian

[TheQ]

I'll have you know the WN have some very modern (well, 1890s) 4 and 6-wheel coaches on order, direct from the manufacturer (as well as a lot of old second-hand tat)!

 

Advertising strapline?

 

"Travel the West Norfolk Railway.  Some of our coaches are only a decade or so old!"

 

Perhaps not.

They'll be older than that if the length of this thread is anything to go by..