Dave4468 Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Before I send this back to Gaugemaster I want to run this by people here and check I am not doing something dimwitted. I've got a Prodigy Express that yesterday was working fine. Last thing I successfully did was program and test a chip in a new loco. When I came back to it later the system would not turn on. After a few attempts at unplugging, leaving for a few minutes, come back and so on eventually I got it to turn on but all it displayed on screen was "ovld", assuming overload, then going to the normal local screen (without blue light) and back to ovld. Left it overnight and now plugging it in but not connecting it to the layout it turns on fire. As soon as I connect the layout and try to turn it on it refuses outright to turn on. It doesn't even go to svld, it just refuses to turn on, not even getting the pilot light. I'm assuming (read hoping) that if it was a wiring problem it would at least turn on before shutting off to protect itself. It is powering 8 locos and nothing else but at the time of it failing nothing was running. Any ideas or experience or something silly I might be doing or shall I just send it right off to Gaugemaster in the first instance? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJGraphics Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Before I send this back to Gaugemaster I want to run this by people here and check I am not doing something dimwitted. I've got a Prodigy Express that yesterday was working fine. Last thing I successfully did was program and test a chip in a new loco. When I came back to it later the system would not turn on. After a few attempts at unplugging, leaving for a few minutes, come back and so on eventually I got it to turn on but all it displayed on screen was "ovld", assuming overload, then going to the normal local screen (without blue light) and back to ovld. Left it overnight and now plugging it in but not connecting it to the layout it turns on fire. As soon as I connect the layout and try to turn it on it refuses outright to turn on. It doesn't even go to svld, it just refuses to turn on, not even getting the pilot light. I'm assuming (read hoping) that if it was a wiring problem it would at least turn on before shutting off to protect itself. It is powering 8 locos and nothing else but at the time of it failing nothing was running. Any ideas or experience or something silly I might be doing or shall I just send it right off to Gaugemaster in the first instance? Thanks in advance. Try removing all rolling stock from the layout to eliminate the possibility of a faulty loco or decoder. Check for points that are partially thrown and may be causing a short. Check for anything metallic that could be causing a short, perhaps in between point blades Gaugemaster are very helpful. If you cannot solve the problem, do give them a call and talk it through with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Hi Initially with the mains turned Off remove the green rear plug from the base unit. This will disconnect all outputs to the rails and the Programming track. With the handset plugged into the base unit turn on at the mains and the handset should power up correctly. If it does your problem is not with the PE but on your layout somewhere. If it still fails to power up correctly then there is a fault in the base or the handset. But before sending it off to Gaugemaster just visually check the cord and the two plugs are correct at each end - base and handset. If it did powered up correctly, then you will have to look carefully at what is causing the problem on the layout - Defective loco, derailed item, something metal laying across the rails, a point not fully over and able to connect both rails together via its frog switching - Seep PM1 motors can do this! Altered wiring etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave4468 Posted February 16, 2016 Author Share Posted February 16, 2016 Well, this is a confusing one. It is some sort of layout electrical problem but a very odd one. I've laid three sidings. I shall try to represent it ASCII style... /---------1--------- /---------2---------- --4---/---------3----------- The points are both electrofrog peco, bonded and wired as for DCC with IRJs in the right places. The points themselves have no droppers, each length of siding (1,2,3,4) have their own droppers, the points are supplied from the sidings. The points are thrown using SEEP PM1 motors, they have not yet been wired up and thrown properly, only manually to test free movement, but they are wired into the power bus for frog switching. When roads 1,3 and 4 are connected I have no problems. As soon as I wire in road 2 the problem surfaces. Brian you mention not fully thrown points. The point used to connect roads 1 and 2 are throwing but leaving a tiny gap (less than 1mm) between the stock rail and blades. Would this, combined with PM1 motors be enough to cause a short, but that would only show up with road 2 in and seems to bear no relation to the position of the points? I'm guessing it is some sort of issue with the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Hi 1) Firstly ensure each point has two Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) on each of its Vee rail ends. - Its very easy to omit one and fit a metal joiner instead. (Been there and got the Tee shirt!) 2) Next ensure all dropper wires on all the tracks are to the correct rail and bus wire. Again it is very easy to get one set around the wrong way and end up with a short circuit. (Another Tee shirt owned!) You say the Seeps are not wired up as yet, is this for their operation or frog polarity switching or both? Points frogs are as yet to be wired to the Seeps F terminals, but are wired with DCC on D & E its possible that a miss behaving Seep sliding contact washer is able to bridge both pads together linking D & E? If you have frogs wired to the Seeps 'F' tags double check the wires on D & E are the correct way around. Simplest way to test is to temporarily remove all the Seep 'F' connection wires and see if the short then disappears. Assuming it does, then connect one points 'F' wire and retest with DCC power, carry on connecting one point at a time until the short appears and it is this point motors D & E that need reversing. (On larger layouts its often possible there is more than one wired wrong!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave4468 Posted February 17, 2016 Author Share Posted February 17, 2016 Hi 1) Firstly ensure each point has two Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) on each of its Vee rail ends. - Its very easy to omit one and fit a metal joiner instead. (Been there and got the Tee shirt!) 2) Next ensure all dropper wires on all the tracks are to the correct rail and bus wire. Again it is very easy to get one set around the wrong way and end up with a short circuit. (Another Tee shirt owned!) You say the Seeps are not wired up as yet, is this for their operation or frog polarity switching or both? Points frogs are as yet to be wired to the Seeps F terminals, but are wired with DCC on D & E its possible that a miss behaving Seep sliding contact washer is able to bridge both pads together linking D & E? If you have frogs wired to the Seeps 'F' tags double check the wires on D & E are the correct way around. Simplest way to test is to temporarily remove all the Seep 'F' connection wires and see if the short then disappears. Assuming it does, then connect one points 'F' wire and retest with DCC power, carry on connecting one point at a time until the short appears and it is this point motors D & E that need reversing. (On larger layouts its often possible there is more than one wired wrong!) 1. IRJs in place. 2. Correct wiring to correct rails and so on. The Seeps are connected up for frog switching but not yet up to a proper switch to operate. I am wondering if manual movement isn't moving the washer enough for decent contact, although pushing from below to the extreme of its run isn't helping it either. It is all related to one set of points/siding. When they are not connected there is no problems at all. Come tomorrow morning I will have a look at swapping wires over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave4468 Posted February 17, 2016 Author Share Posted February 17, 2016 I suspect, to use a technical term, the points themselves are bricked. Sidings wired in without the points, all fine. As soon as I drop the points in, just as dumb track with no feeds and with the Seep totally disconnected the short reappears. Like I said earlier the points are not quite fully throwing and I suspect that is the course of the problem. Annoyed as I was recycling these points to save some money but looks like I might need to replace them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 If you could post a couple of decent pictures of the points from above and below, the experts may be able to see what the problem is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Suggest you carry out the simple testing I stated in my last paragraph of my post 5. This will prove if anything is wired wrong Seep wise, as once all the 'F' wires are removed there should be no connections to all the point frogs which may be causing a possible short circuit. If there is still a short after removing all the 'F' wires it is not the Seep frog wiring at fault. By reconnecting each ones F wire, one at a time and powering up after each reconnection, if the short appears its the last point to be reconnected and tested over and back thats the cause. After correcting carry on until all points are reconnected and tested. EDIT.. As an after thought... You mentioned you have bonded each stock rail to its adjacent closure rail. This is fine, but equally the two little link wires bridging underneath of the two closure rail gaps needs to be removed and the two bonding wires soldered between the closure rail gap and the pivot. (Not between gap and frog!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave4468 Posted February 17, 2016 Author Share Posted February 17, 2016 Thanks for you help, all solved. It was all tracked down to a pair of knacered points. Replaced with a new set and all is fine in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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