Help regarding a layout idea

[GWR88]

Hi all,

I've been railway modelling a long time now and before that I was a military modeller (ok, I built the kits and primed them...close enough!) and yesterday I bought the tamiya 1/35 BMW R75 motorcycle kit to get back into building military figures. Now this got me wondering about building a layout around 1/35 narrow gauge on 16.5mm track with my On30 porter I have. I know its been done before as I saw it done in an old Railway Modeller. My question is, would it be in bad taste to build a layout set in France maybe just after the Germamn Blitzkrieg of a tank re-arming facility and troop rest station using items like these:

 

Field kitchen

 

Troops at rest

Loading the tanks

 

 

 

I want to build it purely as a German based layout due the easy access to material, figures etc there are and in no way to glorify the ideals of the regime they fought for. I would not place SS units on the layout nor would I use swastikas, only iron crosses as that is the formal ID the vehicles used. Does anybody think this is in bad taste at all if it were to be built and maybe exhibited? I'd like to know as I'd like to build an exhibition model of an unusual matter but not one that is in bad taste and would offend people!

Thanks in advance for all of your advice ladies and gentlemen,

Lloyd

 

 

[njee20]

You can do whatever you want. You could build a model of Auschwitz if you so desired (indeed isn't there one at the prototype location?). It may be divisive as an exhibition layout, but there's no law against minor controversy.

 

Those figures are stunning, if you want to put them to use on a layout then I say go nuts.

[stevejjjexcov]

Model what you want its your model your interests and if some people are offended that's their problem not yours. I think that the standard of your modelling will outweigh the doubters and as modellers we all like something different,so my thoughts are go for it and good luck to you. I will look forward to seeing your progress

[stevejjjexcov]

Just a thought could you set the layout in Jersey/Gurnsey as the German occupation forces built light railways on the islands. These were used mostly for moving materials for the fortifications. There are books available on these railways

Steve

[GWR88]

Thank you very much guys for the support guys its nice to know theres a few people who like the idea! Steve, I wish those pictures were my models, maybe one day ill be that good.

Lloyd

[PatB]

Why would it be any more in bad taste than any other military modelling portraying German, Japanese or (if we're looking at things objectively from an atrocities perspective) Soviet forces? The subject isn't my personal interest (although good modelling will always interest me on some level) but I don't see it as in any way offensive in itself. I certainly don't mistake an interest in a particular aspect of history for a desire to see it return.

[Spitfire2865]

Modeling is history, and history is not shying away from the darker portions.

If anyone gives you issue over this, then they certainly are at fault. Hell, if the scene requires a swastika, I say do it. Theres a difference in meaning between the uses, and in yours its for a loose depiction of history.

 

Keep us updated.

[DavidB-AU]

I don't see it as offensive or endorsing the actions of what they did. Aero modellers and wargamers make outstanding models of all sides of conflicts.

 

As to German wartime layouts, here's an example of a WW1 German layout I've seen a few times.

 

 

EDIT: As an aside, I remember reading a letter in RM which put the position that wartime British layouts were in poor taste and that era would be best forgotten. This was in the 70s when I daresay a fair proportion of RM's readers would have served in the war.

 

Cheers

David

[GWR88]

Thanks guys for the advice and I suppose you are right in regards to it being no different to military modellers modelling German troops. I think my main concern was either someone believing I supported the ideology by modelling or was offending someone (neither of which I want to do!) ill keep a thread soon about the layout and let you guys know! Thanks for the encouragement

Lloyd

[DavidB-AU]

Another option could be to temper the scene with the Resistance getting ready for sabotage or helping a downed British pilot.

 

Cheers

David

[GWR88]

David,

I had the idea of putting a British commando unit hidden in the scene and say spot the commandoes and a few resistance men milling about quietly

Lloyd

[orford]

I don't think it's in bad taste at all. After all - it is history and there is nothing wrong with portraying actual historical events because they are fact. The model of the Great Train Robbery is a case in point. A lot of people baulked at that but it was a stunning model portraying historical fact.

 

Although I never did it in the end I did once consider a model of the arrival ramp at Auschwitz - not to glorify it in any way, but as a reminder that we should never forget and that it must never happen again.

 

And I disagree that the era would be best forgotten. It must NEVER be forgotten.

 

If it is to be an exhibition layout, why not have a collection box to hand and donate the proceeds to a veteran's home, or similar?

 

Just my own view.

[Andy Hayter]

Personally I have no problem with anyone who wants to model a layout during the N azi period if it is just to provide a representation of how things were then.  If you are looking for rtr models however you may find issues, since none of the German or Austrian manufacturers actually correctly represent the swastika since that is illegal in both countries.  I know you said you had no intention of so modelling but if you aim for a degree of accuracy that would be difficult.   Clearly these countries do consider such a representation as (at best) bad taste, and at worst, supporting the insupportable. 

[RJS1977]

Just a thought could you set the layout in Jersey/Gurnsey as the German occupation forces built light railways on the islands. These were used mostly for moving materials for the fortifications. There are books available on these railways

Steve

 

Indeed, there was a layout based on one of the Jersey occupation lines at Swanley last year - I don't think there was any controversy about that.

[DavidB-AU]

The model of the Great Train Robbery is a case in point. A lot of people baulked at that but it was a stunning model portraying historical fact.

I hadn't thought of that and it is a stunning model. Indeed at the start of the commentary they explicitly state they are not endorsing the actions of the train robbers.

 

Cheers

David

[Colin]

My two penn'orth, for what it's worth (apologies if anyone takes offence, it's not my intention):

 

WW2 is, in its entirety, all part of history IMHO and shouldn't be sanitised, no matter how horrible the reality was. Those figures and vehicles look fantastic and deserve a suitable scene, all the better if it includes a railway! In any case, without the SS and its associated uniforms and paraphernalia those figure simply represent ordinary soldiers to me.

 

BTW there was (is?) a HO scale model of Auschwitz at the Imperial War Museum, entirely rendered in pale grey. Brilliant, bleak and utterly chilling, especially the lines of newly arrived prisoners. I came away with the feeling that everyone ought to see it at some time.

[Nearholmer]

Aside from the controversy question, a few thoughts on the railway element:

 

- most German-built specifically-military railways in WW2 were 750mm, rather than 600mm, gauge, and there is a stack of information about them, with oodles of drawings, in a book called ""Heeresfeldbahnen"; its a bit heavy to lug about, so I will have to check author etc for you later; [details: Alfred B Gottwald

Heeresfeldbahnen - Bau und Einsatz der militärischen Schmalspurbahnen in zwei Weltkriegen.]

 

 

- 600mm railways were used for particular purposes during wartime, and some utilised requisitioned locos, but, IIRC, most were the province of Todt, which would probably cause even more controversy than a strictly military operation; [this book, largely an album, has a lot on the period, although more 1930s than 1940s Feldbahnen im Dritten Reich, EK-Verlag, Freiburg 2012, 144 Seiten, A4 quer, in Hartpappe gebunden, 246 Schwarzweiß-Abbildungen, ISBN-13: 978-3-88255-736-7, Preis: 29,80 EUR]

 

- the French 600mm gauge common carrier railways in Calvados were very much in the battle front following D-Day, again there is a big fat book about them, details to follow. The final section in traffic was smashed-up on D-Day, which might not suit your purpose! Suitable kits have been/are available from French and British artisanal makers;

 

- an ordinary industrial line, caught-up in things might give a scenario;

 

- or, you could use 1:48 scale military kits (Tamiya?) with 16.5mm gauge to portray 750mm, might work, but I understand that there is a lot more available in 1:35 (I'm "stashing" for a scene in this scale myself, using the not-specifically-military bits that are available, plus an intimidatingly difficult wooden kit of a trawler that SWMBO bought me as a birthday present).

 

Kevin

[sharris]

The model of the Great Train Robbery is a case in point. A lot of people baulked at that but it was a stunning model portraying historical fact.

 

I saw this one along with the audio commentary at the Alexandra Palace show a couple of years ago with my Brazilian girlfriend. She felt moved afterwards to apologise to the exhibitors for her country's part in providing refuge for Ronnie Biggs.

 

 

since none of the German or Austrian manufacturers actually correctly represent the swastika since that is illegal in both countries.  I know you said you had no intention of so modelling but if you aim for a degree of accuracy that would be difficult.   Clearly these countries do consider such a representation as (at best) bad taste, and at worst, supporting the insupportable. 

 

I think it's not just those manufacturers, but the manufacturers that want to sell their models in those countries too. However, third party decals are available to complete the models accurately if required.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It's a popular modelling subject/era/scale with lots of kits available from several producers for damaged buildings etc. Adding a railway to it does not make it any more or less controversial.

[GWR88]

Thank you everyone for the ideas and views expressed on this topic. I asked mainly as to see the general consensus as to whether or not it would be an accepted topic tomodel for the viewing public and your ideas have helped a lot. You are right as many of you have said that history should in no means be glossed over which is why I wanted to model a German supply depot to give a different perspective. 

 

Kevin,

My main idea now is an industrial tramway pressed into service somewhere in Europe around 1943-44 so tanks etc are parked in and around workshops and cobbles to give the scene forced perspective,. I want the train to only be glimpsed around buildings with the tanks and men being the main focus (No pressure on painting them well!) so your information was useful, thankyou.

 

I shall post a topic soon and will keep you gents in the loop by posting a link here and in my signature. Who knows how far the layout will get to but it'll be damn interesting to see other reactions when I do it!

Many thanks,

Lloyd

[Nearholmer]

You saying "forced perspective" suggests another option: Roco make very nice r-t-r HF110c, and Bemo HF130c, in HOe.

 

Slightly closer-up you could use the 1/45 scale Fleischmann Magic Train Oe diesel, which I think could easily be transformed into an early Deutz OMZ122f (HF40B in military speak).

 

Or, the Bachmann 0n30 Davenport diesel, which can be chopped to become a Deutz OMZ117f (a tiny bit short really), in 1/35. These were very common indeed as industrial locos, and some were "press ganged", but weren't an HF standard class.

 

If you "forced hard" you might be able to get even the HOe ones into the far distance on a dioramic layout, with very tightly-controlled viewing angles.

 

K

[sharris]

Sounds like an interesting project.

[Joseph_Pestell]

At 1:35, metre gauge works out to 29mm, i.e. US O gauge. So a model based on a Belgian or French metre gauge tramway should be reasonably straightforward without the need for perspective trickery.

[Nearholmer]

Except that, in defiance of true proportions for standard gauge, US 0 gauge uses 32mm, or as the NMRA standard would have it 1.252", which scales out in 1:35 to 1120mm.

 

Personally, I would still be happy to use that to represent metre gauge, especially if it was put in front, rather than behind the weaponry.

 

And, a couple of kit suggestions:

 

- Trumpeter make kits for at least two SG military-related locos in 1:35, the BR52 and a diesel shunter the class of which escapes me (think German equivalent of the ancestors of the 08);

 

- Kora make a kit of a V2 rocket launch facility, with a bit of feldbahn, including a Jung diesel, in 1:72 scale.

 

- U Models is one of the artisanal suppliers I was thinking of http://www.u-models.com/catalogue_scale_military_vehicles.htm and that in turn made me think "Maginot Line".

 

Absolutely stacks of n.g. railway material was used in and around the Maginot Line (another fat book in my cupboard to check the title of), including the Billard loco and the Pechot wagons that U Models make in your scale.

 

K

[Chris Turnbull]

I have just returned from a holiday in Poland during which my wife and I visited two of the camps at Auschwitz including Auschwitz Birkenau which is the one everyone thinks of.

 

 

This is the view that is most well known.

 

 

These are the reception sidings taken from the tower.

 

 

Looking back to the tower from the reception sidings

 

 

A typical cattle truck that would be packed with up to 100 people.  No one was allowed to get out during the journey and there was one bucket for excrement.  The longest journey was 27 days from Corfu (IIRC) on which 90% died.

 

A sobering experience and a sad reminder of man's inhumanity to man.

 

Chris Turnbull