Why no car shuttle through the Severn Tunnel?

[melmoth]

At something of a tangent to the topic, here's Bob Dylan waiting for the ferry with the unfinished bridge in the background:

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Dylan_aust.jpg

 

http://s155.photobucket.com/user/spook6969/media/two%20rivers/aust%20ferry/feinstein-03.jpg.html

[ForestPines]

Completely off the point, but I've always wondered when Monmouthshire came to be regarded as 'English', or at least not Welsh. Certainly not before the seventeenth century, though that said, at that point, significant areas of south west Herefordshire and bits of Shropshire were Welsh-speaking, at least in part. Certainly when I encounter them in the day job (as a historian), they're referred to as 'in Wales' or in 'Marchia Wallia' (in the March of Wales - not how we'd generally use the term now).

 

All those 21ton fitted minerals branded 'To work in South Wales and Monmouthshire only' suggest that this was the case in the '60s, but I doubt anyone would now suggest that the area was now anything other than Welsh. Or would they?

 

Adam

There certainly are some people of "Monmouthshire is England!" sentiment in the more rural areas, and campaigners who know how to get inched in the local press, but on the other hand in my experience people in Newport nowadays are baffled at the idea it was ever considered English.

 

A few years ago I worked in military recruitment (manning the publically-advertised phone line - I wasn't in service myself) and recall one teenager from Monmouth call to ask for special dispensation to have his final recruitment interview happen in Bristol rather than Cardiff - normally you go to a set office according to your postcode and that's that. His argument was that he didn't want to be recorded as Welsh on his service record. I can't recall, though, whether he felt that he *lived* in England or not.

[John_Miles]

If you paid extra, they would put a tarpaulin over your car to stop it getting covered in soot going through the tunnel.

[Coppercap]

If you paid extra, they would put a tarpaulin over your car to stop it getting covered in soot going through the tunnel.

 

So instead, the car got scratched by the sooty tarpaulin when it was being put on and pulled off! 

[br2975]

I think you'll find the Welsh end is actually in Wales, either that or Chepstow has been stolen in a English land grab !

The M48 (Old) Severn Bridge links Aust (Glos.) and Beachley (Glos.)

 

Beachley is then linked to Chepstow by the Wye Viaduct - they are two distinct structures, albeit linked

.

It is actually the Wye Viaduct that links England and Wales using the M48

.

However, the M4 SSC (Second Severn Crossing) does link England to Wales.

.

It's a common quiz question hereabouts.

.

Brian R

.

PS

If you want chapter and verse, ask 'naturol' of this parish - he worked for Avon C.C. Highways Dept. Bridges Section many moons ago, and the FSC was his domain.

[Judge Dread]

I used the ferry in 1960 whilst on a cycling holiday. I have a vivid memory of a car skidding on the mud on the ramp because it was low tide and almost literally missing the ferry altogether. 

[br2975]

One of the Aust-Beachey ferries, note the vehicle turntable to help maximise loading;

 

image.jpeg

 

That might be the Severn Princess which has long been the subject of a preservation attempt, there was some progress a couple of years back though I've not heard anything recently.

 

As a youngster I travelled from Cardiff to Hayle, Cornwall in my uncle's combination, sat between my aunt's legs !

.

We waited on the slipway at Beachley for the first ferry that Saturday morning.

.

I can tell you know, the ferry (Severn King, Severn Queen or Severn Princess I cannot recall which) sat so low in the water one could lean over the gunwhales and touch the brown gravy that is the River Severn - the currents were such I s**t myself.

.

Just prior to the opening of the original Severn Bridge our school trip was to be a visit to the completed, but unopened structure.

.

The visit to the bridge was cancelled due to bomb threats made by the "Free Wales Army" and sadly we went to the Army Apprentices College at Beachley, directly beneath the bridge (!!!)  instead.

.

Brian R

[The Stationmaster]

We have been here before -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/39204-severn-tunnel-pilning-to-stj-car-carrier-service/

 

Incidentally at one time the service definitely used Carflats, not 4 wheelers, but I don't know when it progressed to using the larger vehicles 

 

http://s9.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/55/50/2555005_b14dee7a.jpg

[billbedford]

Completely off the point, but I've always wondered  when Monmouthshire came to be regarded as 'English', or at least not Welsh. Certainly not before the seventeenth century, though that said, at that point, significant areas of south west Herefordshire and bits of Shropshire were Welsh-speaking, at least in part. Certainly when I encounter them in the day job (as a historian), they're referred to as 'in Wales' or in 'Marchia Wallia' (in the March of Wales - not how we'd generally use the term now).

 

 

There was an old bloke in my local in the Eastern Valley who used to sum up the situation as: "We're Men o' Gwent -- we'll fight for which ever side pays more"

[Great Western]

My grandfather, who's family were from around there, would say that the western ends were in Monmouthshire, not Wales. England started at Tutshill, on the Gloucester side of the bridge over the Wye at Chepstow

Monmouthshire is one of those funny counties within the great country of Wales who seem to flip between whichever country offers the best deal to them.

 

At the moment, Monmouthshire is most certainly in Wales.

[Great Western]

The M48 (Old) Severn Bridge links Aust (Glos.) and Beachley (Glos.)

 

Beachley is then linked to Chepstow by the Wye Viaduct - they are two distinct structures, albeit linked

.

It is actually the Wye Viaduct that links England and Wales using the M48

.

However, the M4 SSC (Second Severn Crossing) does link England to Wales.

.

It's a common quiz question hereabouts.

.

Brian R

.

PS

If you want chapter and verse, ask 'naturol' of this parish - he worked for Avon C.C. Highways Dept. Bridges Section many moons ago, and the FSC was his domain.

Your right of course, the leg of England that extends down the Wye river outlet to the Severn.

[DLT]

At something of a tangent to the topic, here's Bob Dylan waiting for the ferry with the unfinished bridge in the background:

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Dylan_aust.jpg

 

http://s155.photobucket.com/user/spook6969/media/two%20rivers/aust%20ferry/feinstein-03.jpg.html

 

Apparently, these photos were taken the morning after the first night of the British tour (at Bristol Colston Hall) when Dylan "went electric".

And if you think he looks more miserable than usual, it was probably because the "electric" hadn't gone down very well.

 

A google image search for Aust Ferry bring up load of photos, then and now, and even a few of the train ferry service.

 

Cheers, Dave.

[DLT]

The Wikipedia entry for Aust Ferry give a brief history of the various Severn Crossing over the years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aust_Ferry

[billbedford]

Monmouthshire is one of those funny counties within the great country of Wales who seem to flip between whichever country offers the best deal to them.

 

At the moment, Monmouthshire is most certainly in Wales.

 

 

Monmouthshire has been part of Wales since the Act of Union in 1536. The only original difference in administration between Monmouthshire and the other Welsh counties was that it was on the Oxford judicial circuit while all the others were on the Shrewsbury circuit.

[br2975]

Monmouth's most famous son........

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZVxbrW7Ow

.

And, he considered himself Welsh.

 

Brian R

[ForestPines]

Monmouthshire has been part of Wales since the Act of Union in 1536. The only original difference in administration between Monmouthshire and the other Welsh counties was that it was on the Oxford judicial circuit while all the others were on the Shrewsbury circuit.

And if you read the law creating Monmouthshire - as I did just now on Wikipedia - it makes it clear that before 1536 the area which became Monmouthshire had been considered to be Welsh.

 

I had always assumed Monmouth's most famous son to be Geoffrey, he who first popularised Arthur, Merlin, Lear and so on. He might have been an Oxford don but he definitely claimed to be able to read Welsh - he claimed the books he wrote were retellings of Welsh originals.

[Prometheus]

I used the ferry in 1960 whilst on a cycling holiday. I have a vivid memory of a car skidding on the mud on the ramp because it was low tide and almost literally missing the ferry altogether. 

 

I saw an Austin JB van doing the same, and this time sliding down the slip into the river. The driver was out before the van got wet !

 

Tony

[Killybegs]

People have drowned in cars that went off the Aust Ferry slip way. In its last years tthe decking was decidedly dodgy.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Monmouthshire has been part of Wales since the Act of Union in 1536. The only original difference in administration between Monmouthshire and the other Welsh counties was that it was on the Oxford judicial circuit while all the others were on the Shrewsbury circuit.

Certainly the confusion arises from the time that Monmouthshire came under the Oxford Assizes (Charles II).

 

But it was enshrined in laws as well where there was, rather like those wagons, mention of "Wales and Monmouthshire". In that sense, Monmouth had a similar status to Berwick on Tweed which was neither in England or Scotland. The most notable case was when Wales went "dry" on Sundays and Monmouthshire wanted to be excluded from that.

 

With regard to maps, I don't think that I have ever seen a modern map where Monmouthshire was not shown as being in Wales.

[ForestPines]

With regard to maps, I don't think that I have ever seen a modern map where Monmouthshire was not shown as being in Wales.

The Ordnance Survey showed it as being in England prior to 1974, with a note in the key explaining that it was treated as part of Wales for most purposes.