Scotrail HSTs - what formation?

[Guest eddie reffin]

First official comments about some delays. It looks like the HSTs will be signed over as agreed but immediately sub-leased back to GWR (much the same arrangement as with the 170s). Kinda confirms what we already suspected up here.

[hexagon789]

I don't think they will. I think they will retain their 2,250hp engines and 1,770hp at rail. Part of the reason for introducing HSTs is their superior acceleration to a Class 170. A commitment to reduce InterCity timings, Glasgow-Inverness by 13 mins on average for instance, suggests that the won't be derated.

[royaloak]

Yeah, I guess with the *ahem* difficulties they're having in getting the knitting up over the GWML the whole timetable for the HSTs move north is slipping. Maybe they've decided to enter a few in service with slam doors whilst a few are kept back to be modified with power doors, then rotate them as the power door sets are released. 1st Jan 2020 is a hard date and the HSTs must have power doors by then. Unless of course the whole thing is abandoned and Scotrail buy some nice new coaches from CAF, with a few more 68s to push pull them. They could even paint them grey with a blue and white stripe ;-).

Can you point me to where it stares that power doors are required to comply with the PRM-TSI regulations please, I am not aware that there is any such requirement and people are just assuming there is,there was talk early on about some trains would be compliant if the interior was modified because the current slam doors were wide enough to comply as they were.

 

I have read through most of it (I just couldnt complete it as I kept falling asleep, it was all them long words) and cant see anywhere where that is stipulated.

Edited September 2, 2016 by royaloak

[D854_Tiger]

It seems a pity the Voyagers couldn't be replaced with IEPs and then moved up to Scotland.

 

The tilt might be useful up there and their five and four coach formation not such a headache as they are down here.

 

Just saying, but I'll get my coat if you think it's best.

[Edwin_m]

Can you point me to where it stares that power doors are required to comply with the PRM-TSI regulations please, I am not aware that there is any such requirement and people are just assuming there is,there was talk early on about some trains would be compliant if the interior was modified because the current slam doors were wide enough to comply as they were.

 

I have read through most of it (I just couldnt complete it as I kept falling asleep, it was all them long words) and cant see anywhere where that is stipulated.

Without having read it either I think you're right.  The fitting of power doors may well be more about avoiding station delays while somebody goes to shut the door. 

[Bomag]

It seems a pity the Voyagers couldn't be replaced with IEPs and then moved up to Scotland.

 

The tilt might be useful up there and their five and four coach formation not such a headache as they are down here.

 

Just saying, but I'll get my coat if you think it's best.

 

'It seems a pity the Voyagers couldn't be replaced with IEPs and then banished from the UK.'

 

I fixed that for you.

[nightstar.train]

Can you point me to where it stares that power doors are required to comply with the PRM-TSI regulations please, I am not aware that there is any such requirement and people are just assuming there is,there was talk early on about some trains would be compliant if the interior was modified because the current slam doors were wide enough to comply as they were.

 

I have read through most of it (I just couldnt complete it as I kept falling asleep, it was all them long words) and cant see anywhere where that is stipulated.

To be honest I've never read them either. Just going off of what I read in various magazines. They all say that the Scotrail HSTs will get power doors, so I was assuming that it was needed for PRM-TSI.

 

Can't wait for the HSTs to get here though. Think they'll look great in Scotrail blue.

[Chameleon]

There may be problems with fitting power doors. Apparently virtually all the MkIIIs are warped, bent, slightly kinked and otherwise generally misshapen after 40 years of being pushed and pulled everywhere. Fitting some sort of standard power plug doors to these will be a complete nightmare! I think there are interior mock-ups down at Wabtec at Doncaster awaiting approval.

[black and decker boy]

From what has been written by industry people elsewhere, I think these door conversions will be sliding not plug type, assembled in a frame so the coach itself isn't a major concern.

 

It is this different approach that has slashed the price paid by Chiltern for their bespoke plug doors that rely on the coach structure.

Edited September 4, 2016 by black and decker boy

[mjkerr]

The Porterbrook website advises there are trials of revised door handles that meet the legal requirements, and these will be fitted to all Mark 3 coaches (HST and LHCS) by 2023

The only power doors that require to be fitted are to the dedicated disabled toilet converted coaches

[Talltim]

It seems a pity the Voyagers couldn't be replaced with IEPs and then moved up to Scotland.

 

The tilt might be useful up there and their five and four coach formation not such a headache as they are down here.

 

Just saying, but I'll get my coat if you think it's best.

Don't you like the Scots?

[nightstar.train]

The Porterbrook website advises there are trials of revised door handles that meet the legal requirements, and these will be fitted to all Mark 3 coaches (HST and LHCS) by 2023The only power doors that require to be fitted are to the dedicated disabled toilet converted coaches

That's interesting. So we may (as suggested further up) end up with mixed rakes with a dedicated complaint vehicle with the disabled loo and power doors, and then the rest of the coaches "standard" (apart from new door handles). Are the new handles so you can open the door without having to lean out the window?

[mjkerr]

Are the new handles so you can open the door without having to lean out the window?

There are no diagrams, as yet, but the text advises the handles are power assisted along with a new interior handle

That would suggest the window is also revised

There was a video, but it has disappeared

[wombatofludham]

The Glasgow Pravda sticks it's claws into the plan for refurbished HSTs

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotrails-new-fleet-trains-old-9389369

[phil-b259]

There may be problems with fitting power doors. Apparently virtually all the MkIIIs are warped, bent, slightly kinked and otherwise generally misshapen after 40 years of being pushed and pulled everywhere. Fitting some sort of standard power plug doors to these will be a complete nightmare! I think there are interior mock-ups down at Wabtec at Doncaster awaiting approval.

 

Then how comes Chiltern managed it with their MK3s?

 

If the coaches are that destorted then surely it would call into question their safety regardless of the door type.

[Zomboid]

The Glasgow Pravda sticks it's claws into the plan for refurbished HSTs

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotrails-new-fleet-trains-old-9389369

They've confused "new" with "good". Easily done these days...

['CHARD]

Then how comes Chiltern managed it with their MK3s?

 

If the coaches are that destorted then surely it would call into question their safety regardless of the door type.

 

The use of the word distortion is possibly a bit misleading.  In its quoted context I read it as a colloquialism - 'after 40 years of being pushed and pulled everywhere' was hardly an extract from the 5exual appendage, sorry sectional appendix!

 

In reality, no two MkIIIs are the same, and often all the compounded roundings-up or down accumulate to infest one end of the body, depending which way round it was constructed.  For this reason, every corner door is a bespoke installation, and adjusted uniquely too. Not as bad as MkIIs were, but still technically challenging.  Add to this the half dozen main works interventions they've seen, and it's apparent that they are not suited to a one-size fits all modification.

 

Not to mention the conversions from one vehicle type to another...

[JohnR]

They've confused "new" with "good". Easily done these days...

Yes. I for one am looking forward to them. However, the cycle capacity leaves much to be desired! We're going from 4 bikes on a 170 to 2 bikes on a 2+5 HST!

[Glorious NSE]

They've confused "new" with "good". Easily done these days...

 

No different down here - many folk responded to GWR's 40th Anniversary HST posts with derisory comments about how ancient their trains are...  

[royaloak]

As I understand it, the conversion consists of cutting out the existing door and toilet and replacing it with a drop in, self supporting module meaning any differences in the actual bodies of the mark 3 wont really matter.

[hexagon789]

Further to my earlier post on the formations of the Scotrail HST sets, which was a bit of a guess based on the Franchise Agreement, I can now confirm the official formations/seating capacities as follows. There has been a change in the number of four and five-car sets. Originally there was to be 14 four-car and 13 five-car sets, this has been altered to 17 five-car and 9 four-car sets.

 

Five-car sets will seat 32 First (4 priority) and 280 Standard (32 priority) passengers and the four-car sets will seat the same number of First Class passengers but 206 (24 priority) in Standard.

 

Five-car sets will be formed: DM-TFC-TSD-TSB-TS-TS-DM

Four-car sets will be formed: DM-TFC-TSD-TSB-TS-DM

 

Vehicle details are as follows:

 

DM (Driving Motor): Power Car, space for 3 cycles*

TFC (Trailer First Catering) Coach A: 32 First, catering provision (consists of serving counter with micro-galley and a self-service drinks machine), crew compartment and one toilet

TSD (Trailer Standard Disabled) Coach B: 58 Std (and 2 wheelchair places), wheelchair accessible/baby change toilet

TSB (Trailer Standard Bicycle) Coach C: 74 Standard, space for 2 cycles*, no toilet

TS (Trailer Standard) Coach D and where present E: 74 Standard, one toilet

 

*due to dwell times bicycle storage in the power cars will only be available to passengers travelling the full journey, e.g. Glasgow-Aberdeen, customers boarding/alighting at intermediate stations will be required to use the cycle storage space in the TSB.

 

Additionally ALL exterior doors will be replaced with single-leaf electric plug doors which will be fitted with a traction/brake interlock.

All toilets available for passenger use will be of a vacuum CET type.

 

Seats in standard class will be of the Grammer type, identical to those fitted to the Inverness-based 158s, while in First the existing leather seats, carpets and curtains will be retained.

 

In normal service both power cars will provide traction power at their current rating of 1,770 hp at rail and the ATP equipment will be isolated but left in situ.

 

A new Passenger Information System will be fitted, this will be the same as that fitted to the refurbished Class 156 units.

Edited December 7, 2016 by hexagon789

[Talltim]

No disabled in first class?

[royaloak]

 

 

 ALL exterior doors will be replaced with single-leaf electric plug doors 

I thought they were having sliding doors fitted?

[hexagon789]

No disabled in first class?

 

No, though there isn't currently wheelchair provision in First Class on either the 158s or 170s, so I assume Abellio couldn't be bothered to change this arrangement with the HSTs.

[hexagon789]

I thought they were having sliding doors fitted?

 

The image of the doors looks like they are electric-plug doors, identical to those the Class 442 EMUs have. All that the text on the subject of the doors/vestibules states is: "The existing emergency egress light shall be retained. The vestibule will be painted including walls, gangway doors, ceilings, and any retained grab poles. The existing bin assembly will be retained. New electric power-operated exterior doors will be fitted."

Edited December 7, 2016 by hexagon789