BR Oil Trains

[Clive Mortimore]

Some class B trains did have barrier wagons possibly because of the type of load, the train on my layout 'Wharfeside' is made up from photographs and could have almost anything as a barrier wagon, I thought at first they were fitted wagons due to the gradients on the Wharfedale line but some photos showed wooden minerals or unfitted twin bolster wagons in use. I understand these trains were crude oil for refining so could possibly give off flammable vapours. There were also two barrier wagons before the brakevan.

J39 on the oil, Tanks slowly being detailed, weathered and chassis changed to the new Cambrian type.

Oil train.jpg

 

Dave Franks

HI Dave

 

Crude oil is normally carried in class A wagons because of its low flash point, even though it is a "dirty" product. Were the barrier wagons used as reach wagons at one or both terminals?

 

Off the top of my head I cannot recall the date when barrier wagons were no longer required but before that date (some time in the 70s) as modellers we keep it simple if you have class A wagons in your train or a train of class A wagons use barrier wagons.

 

It wasn't until the advent of better bottom discharge valves that class A wagons were used for transporting the likes of diesel, this coincided about the same time as the fitting of vacuum and/or air brakes. Most places were diesel was unloaded were geared up for bottom discharge so the earlier 14 ton unfitted class A wagons would rarely be used for diesel. So only if your modelling is 1960s and later can you get away with class A tanks without a barrier wagon.

[phil gollin]

Surely products such as bitumen would need steam heating - so presumably any barrier or reach wagons would need to be through piped ?

 

I've never thought about it, but presumably from the 70s onwards such tankers had to have electrical heating ???????

[Porcy Mane]

Surely products such as bitumen would need steam heating - so presumably any barrier or reach wagons would need to be through piped ?

The steam (or raw flame in some cases) was usually supplied from a separate steam raising plant at point of loading and discharge; Hence lagging on most bitumen/tar tanks to retain heat whilst travelling.

 

Zip this film forward to about 17 minutes. It'll give you some idea about how it was done. Then dream of the efficiency of Izal bum wipe.

http://player.bfi.org.uk/film/watch-thorncliffe-1935/

 

P

[bike2steam]

Mmmm, I have a few pics of steam hauled class B empties (black) returning to Fawley from Bromford Bridge, with the usual pair of brake fitted LNER design steel opens behind the loco.

[Fat Controller]

Mmmm, I have a few pics of steam hauled class B empties (black) returning to Fawley from Bromford Bridge, with the usual pair of brake fitted LNER design steel opens behind the loco.

Might this have been before the rules were relaxed for Class B products?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Mmmm, I have a few pics of steam hauled class B empties (black) returning to Fawley from Bromford Bridge, with the usual pair of brake fitted LNER design steel opens behind the loco.

I think there was a circuit working for these barrier wagons as the tanks varied depending on stock levels of different products at Bromford Bridge. I remember at least one 8-plank vac fitted steel underframe open possibly of SR origin on these trains. 

[Andy_C]

I’ve just posted this question elsewhere, and then done a web search leading me to this thread.

 

A question re era 5 that I can’t seem to put an answer to, please?

 

tanker wagons - would they all still be the same supplier eg Esso, or would a rake run mixed named? 

 

Does anyone have a reference I can use? I’m well briefed on mixed freight and braked/unbraced etc, but tanker configurations have me flummoxed? I also know about later eras, and also era 5vuse of a box van between the loco and tankers etc?

[Aire Head]

On 15/03/2022 at 16:18, Andy_C said:

and also era 5vuse of a box van between the loco and tankers etc?

 

 

According to the 1950 rulebook it's a minimum of two vehicles between the locomotive and lead vehicles containing explosives or flammable goods.

 

[bécasse]

Two at each end (hence "4") for trains required to reverse en route, usually with a brake van at each end too - although it is considerably easier to remarshall just a brake van to the other end of the train than to have to remarshall barrier wagons as well.

[Fat Controller]

On 15/03/2022 at 16:18, Andy_C said:

I’ve just posted this question elsewhere, and then done a web search leading me to this thread.

 

A question re era 5 that I can’t seem to put an answer to, please?

 

tanker wagons - would they all still be the same supplier eg Esso, or would a rake run mixed named? 

 

Does anyone have a reference I can use? I’m well briefed on mixed freight and braked/unbraced etc, but tanker configurations have me flummoxed? I also know about later eras, and also era 5vuse of a box van between the loco and tankers etc?

In the period between WW2 and the end of the 1950s, oil traffic might be seen either as block trains of one operator's wagons, or as individual wagon (or small groups) within a mixed freight trains. There weren't that many block trains, as most destinations were fairly small affairs. The sea-change came with the introduction of vac-braked trains by Esso in the late 1950s.

[Andy_C]

9 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

In the period between WW2 and the end of the 1950s, oil traffic might be seen either as block trains of one operator's wagons, or as individual wagon (or small groups) within a mixed freight trains. There weren't that many block trains, as most destinations were fairly small affairs. The sea-change came with the introduction of vac-braked trains by Esso in the late 1950s.

Thanks for the responses.

 

The Esso comment struck a chord, as Revolution are brining out some rather nice(but not cheap) tankers.

[Aire Head]

11 minutes ago, Andy_C said:

Thanks for the responses.

 

The Esso comment struck a chord, as Revolution are brining out some rather nice(but not cheap) tankers.

 

Are those the same type as the old Airfixnnow Dapol Kits?

[Fat Controller]

12 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Are those the same type as the old Airfixnnow Dapol Kits?

I believe Oxford and Heljan have already covered the 35t GLW tank, as originally modelled by Airfix. 

[Andy_C]

https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/n-gauge-wagons-freight/products/revolution-trains-n35tb-101c-35t-class-b-tank-wagon-esso-3546
 

These…

[hmrspaul]

On 19/07/2016 at 22:08, phil gollin said:

Surely products such as bitumen would need steam heating - so presumably any barrier or reach wagons would need to be through piped ?

 

I've never thought about it, but presumably from the 70s onwards such tankers had to have electrical heating ???????

No. As an example the Mobil fleet had Bitumen tanks with flame tubes including 50t GLW wagons built in 1979. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=mobil

 

Bachmann copied this photo of the possibly uniquely painted class A wagon used to deliver fuel to their depots for the flaming https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brttanks/e3961f2cd

 

The low flammability meant there were no barriers or reach wagons used. 

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

Back in the early/ mid-1980s, the 'bus from our village used to go along Scotswood Road to get to Newcastle. In doing so, it passed the Jobling-Perser/ Shell-BP bitumen depot at the improbably-named 'Paradise'. If you were on the top deck, you had a bird's eye view of the unloading taking place; the impression was more Dante's Inferno than Paradise.

[Andy_C]

I do fancy running an era appropriate (era 5) rake of tankers. Charlie from Chadwick recently did what i thought was a very informative video on goods trains...

 

I have some Farish Bitumils tankers already, and might also get some others to make up the rake.

[rodent279]

On 03/07/2016 at 22:02, hmrspaul said:

The first is a SMBP train, The first five wagons are recently introduced vacuum braked probably 45tonners - the double plates is the give away. Probably class B as no barrier. The remainder of the train is unfitted presumably SMBP tanks.

 

The fifth is an SMBP train, it will consist of wagons built any time from the 1920s onwards, probably quite a lot of WW2 type as introduced by Lionheart. I can't see any anchor mounts.

 

There is insufficient of the others to suggest anything - a guess is simply more SMBPs, by the dates you are suggesting most companies had introduced vacuum braked wagons but SMBP was by far the largest fleet and also the last large fleet  to modernise. They seriously considered getting out of rail transport.

 

Paul

What does SMBP mean in this context?

[108]

11 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

What does SMBP mean in this context?

Shell Mex and BP?

[bécasse]

11 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

What does SMBP mean in this context?

Shell Mex BP where BP is short for British Petroleum but always referred to by just the initials. The two companies shared facilities for many years.

 

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

What does SMBP mean in this context?

 

Shell-Mex and BP Ltd was a British joint venture between petroleum companies Royal Dutch Shell (Shell) and BP. It was formed in 1932 when both companies decided to merge their United Kingdom marketing operations, [1] partly in response to the difficult economic conditions of the times.

The parent organisations demerged their United Kingdom marketing operations in 1976. 

 

Since 1932 the products of the Companies of the Royal Dutch/Shell Group and of The British Petroleum Group have been marketed in the UK through the agency of Shell-Mex and B.P. Ltd. In that year the company's business amounted to about 3 million tons, out of a total UK market of some 7 million tons.

The activities of this most successful enterprise have extended greatly over the years. In 1970 Shell-Mex and B.P. Ltd. supplied 40 million tons of the UK petroleum market, amounting to a total of 100 million tons.

 

National Benzole was a petroleum brand used in the United Kingdom from 1919 to the 1960s. In 1957 the National Benzole Co. became wholly owned by Shell-Mex & BP (through British Petroleum) but continued its separate trading identity. In the early 1960s National Benzole was re-branded as National and continued trading as a UK retailer of petroleum products until the early 1990s, when the brand was phased out by parent company BP.

 

The rail fleet was very elderly until c1965. They were much slower than other oil companies to amrenew their fleet with power braked wagons from 1958. From then they introduced a very large modern fleet, the delay meaning that many of their wagons were air brake from new, and they had a huge fleet of bogie tanks. . With TOPS introduced in 1973 the yellow SMBP plates were produced but I'm not aware any were attached to wagons (they were sold off via Collectors corner - I have one) as the fleet was split between Shell (SUKO) 60% and BPO 40%. 

 

Paul

[Clive Mortimore]

On 01/04/2022 at 10:29, Andy_C said:

I do fancy running an era appropriate (era 5) rake of tankers. Charlie from Chadwick recently did what i thought was a very informative video on goods trains...

 

I have some Farish Bitumils tankers already, and might also get some others to make up the rake.

Oh dear the class 33 hauled tanker train. Black tanks (Class B) did not need a barrier wagon owing to their much high flash point. Class A (silver or grey tanks) did as they had a lower flash point. If vacuum fitted they are not TTAs, for the pre TOPS period they would have been known as 45 ton GLW tank wagons. Post TOPS if they had not been rebuilt with air brakes (most had) they were TTVs.

[Andy_C]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Oh dear the class 33 hauled tanker train. Black tanks (Class B) did not need a barrier wagon owing to their much high flash point. Class A (silver or grey tanks) did as they had a lower flash point. If vacuum fitted they are not TTAs, for the pre TOPS period they would have been known as 45 ton GLW tank wagons. Post TOPS if they had not been rebuilt with air brakes (most had) they were TTVs.

Forgive my naivety, but TTA v TTV? Sorry, you are going to have to help me with the abbreviations, please? 
 

I try to avoid abbreviations unless I give their full meaning 1st eg A Book Of Acronyms = ABOA. 😬

Edit - I’ve done a quick web search, and I think I know what you mean. Eg my Graham Farish Bitumils tankers would not need a barrier wagon? 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Andy_C

[Andy_C]

I was going to run my tanker train similar to this?

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Oh dear the class 33 hauled tanker train. Black tanks (Class B) did not need a barrier wagon owing to their much high flash point. Class A (silver or grey tanks) did as they had a lower flash point. If vacuum fitted they are not TTAs, for the pre TOPS period they would have been known as 45 ton GLW tank wagons. Post TOPS if they had not been rebuilt with air brakes (most had) they were TTVs.

Clive

I don't believe there were many TTV to TTA conversions until the 1980s - indeed conversion to Bruninghaus suspension appears to have happened earlier than some TTV to TTA converts. Strangely they don't seem to have been done at the same time, which would have been logical. 

 

Paul

PS for Andy - TOPS codes and explanations are in many of the later BR wagon books and probably on line. They aren't abbreviations or acronyms in the normal sense, but descriptors in just the same way as SHARK or MERMAID or VANFIT is telling us all something.