More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[sharris]

And loading bricks the Bedford way - Stewartby circa 1936.

 

taken from:

 

http://www.ampthill.tv/archive/ZZ/Brickmaking 1938/Bricks Cine 1938.mp4

[Compound2632]

I thought for a moment this was going to be the brickworks film we had before, with the amazing pyramid wagon-load, but it's a different one. (Perhaps it might even be more at home on the Rapido D1666 thread?) Some interesting industrial OHLE for @Nearholmer!

[Compound2632]

I have taken delivery of a large number of Burton beer casks - hogsheads and barrels:

 

 

These have been 3D-printed and painted by Monks Gate Models (aka @Tricky) to my specification, using the dimensions from the diagram of Bass, Radcliffe, and Gretton casks that I had from the National Brewery Centre a while ago. (This has unfortunately now closed, though I read that there is some hope of it re-opening at another Burton location, in some form, although one knows the financial pressure council museum services are under at the moment. No doubt @41516 has up-to-date information.) I asked for half of the casks to be made with 0.8 mm missing from one end - this is to compensate for the floors of the Slaters D299 and D305 kits sitting too high by that amount (i.e. the internal depth is 0.8 mm too small). These are the casks standing upright in the wagons. I think I will shorten a few more myself, to get a couple of full loads of casks standing upright:

 

 

Nick @magmouse's topic has been invaluable in getting me thinking about cask loads again:

 

[41516]

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

No doubt @41516 has up-to-date information.

 

The council had bet everything on getting £20m from the Levelling Up funds (with ~£7m going to the refurbishment of Bass house and rehoming some of the museum items) and they failed in the bid.

 

I suspect many of the items that were on show will never be seen again by the public in my lifetime.

 

 

39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

large number of Burton beer casks

 

 

I would try and darken the hoops if you can - challenging! They do seem a little less shapely than my mind's image for the 'right' profile should be. It might be an optical illusion with hoops having to be much thicker than scale to stand out.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by 41516

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, 41516 said:

I would try and darken the hoops if you can - challenging! They do seem a little less shapely than my mind's image for the 'right' profile should be. It might be an optical illusion with hoops having to be much thicker than scale to stand out.

 

I hope Richard won't mind my saying that there was a technical issue - the method he uses to represent the hoops on his 7 mm casks didn't scale to 4 mm, so I took them "as is". The key thing in 4 mm scale (at least at the 00 end of the scale) is the overall impression. 

[41516]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The key thing in 4 mm scale (at least at the 00 end of the scale) is the overall impression. 

 

It's the loco boiler band or wagon planking dilemma again.  To have them, but overscale, or not have them and it not looking 'right'?   The smoothness between staves looks very nice - no huge trenches for once!

 

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I hope Richard won't mind my saying that there was a technical issue - the method he uses to represent the hoops on his 7 mm casks didn't scale to 4 mm, so I took them "as is". The key thing in 4 mm scale (at least at the 00 end of the scale) is the overall impression. 

 

Great to see well-modelled casks en masse. Maybe try a little dry-brushing with a medium/dark grey on the hoops? Test one side of one cask, so if you don't like the effect, you use it with that side down in your 3-plank with some casks on their bilges, and pretend it never happened.

 

The picture of the loaded wagons is interesting - some wagons have a mix of sizes of casks in them. It would be great to have a full range of casks accurately sized and well-modelled, in 4mm and *ahem* 7mm scales.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, magmouse said:

and *ahem* 7mm scales.

 

Well this was the starting-point: https://www.monksgate.co.uk/shop/barrels

But those are not to the Burton dimensions, as far as I'm aware, being upgraded Slaters. But now he's done the CAD for me in 4 mm scale, I sure Richard would be open to commissions for cooperage (printing and hooping) in 7 mm scale. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well this was the starting-point: https://www.monksgate.co.uk/shop/barrels

But those are not to the Burton dimensions, as far as I'm aware, being upgraded Slaters. But now he's done the CAD for me in 4 mm scale, I sure Richard would be open to commissions for cooperage (printing and hooping) in 7 mm scale. 

 

Yes - Richard's casks were the inspiration for using the Slater's product for my own beer barrels - they are a bit basic and need quite a lot of work to bring them up to scratch. I developed a method of doing the hoops in black self-adhesive vinyl sheet, of a kind made for signage, etc.. I painted it with gunmetal paint before cutting into thin strips and sticking it on. Fiddly in 7mm, and impracticable in 4mm, I suspect.

 

As you have seen, I have found a source for large casks in 7mm, to represent tuns, but some smaller ones would be nice. Food for thought...

 

Nick. 

[Compound2632]

Just now, magmouse said:

I developed a method of doing the hoops in black self-adhesive vinyl sheet, of a kind made for signage, etc.. I painted it with gunmetal paint before cutting into thin strips and sticking it on. Fiddly in 7mm, and impracticable in 4mm, I suspect.

 

Great minds think alike, as I understand it.

[41516]

If I was being picky, I think there are some minor tweaks that could be made to be more typical of a Burton ale cask, especially when scaling up to 7mm.

 

The quarter hoop (2nd down) should be a bit closer to the head hoop and the head hoop should be noticably wider than the quarter hoop (and sometimes the bilge hoops). I'm not sure how well the chime (bevelled section at the end of the staves) around the head comes accross, it might just be trouble seeing it in 4mm! 

 

 

 

The hoop overlaps and rivets might also be large enough in 7mm to be included. Head and bilge hoops only for smaller casks typically too - Kilderkin, firkin, pin.

 

 

 

All pictures are mine from my last trip to the museum in October.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, 41516 said:

If I was being picky, I think there are some minor tweaks that could be made to be more typical of a Burton ale cask, especially when scaling up to 7mm.

 

The quarter hoop (2nd down) should be a bit closer to the head hoop and the head hoop should be noticably wider than the quarter hoop (and sometimes the bilge hoops). I'm not sure how well the chime (bevelled section at the end of the staves) around the head comes accross, it might just be trouble seeing it in 4mm! 

 

The printed "hoops" were intended as guidelines for the tape hoops that didn't work out; these would therefore have been to one side or other. I'm not unduly concerned since when packed in D299, it's really the ends that will be most prominent. This has been a learning experience which might lead to a second attempt (or a decision to stick to 7 mm).

[41516]

I think if I were 3D printing them, I'd be thinking of a 3D printed hoop painting aid/jig as well.  Or waiting for self-coloured 3D printing to filter down to consumer level!

 

 

[Compound2632]

Call me a cynic but I'm taking the philosophical approach:

 

 

[Mikkel]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

I developed a method of doing the hoops in black self-adhesive vinyl sheet, of a kind made for signage, etc.. I painted it with gunmetal paint before cutting into thin strips and sticking it on. Fiddly in 7mm, and impracticable in 4mm, I suspect.

 

 

Tweezers help 🙂 These are heresy I suppose - detailed Bachmann 4mm items using painted masking tape for the hoops (easier than painting the moulded hoops). I was surprised to see fairly large casks with just 4 hoops in various photos in the GWR Goods Services series.

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Mikkel
Danglish. Not *a* tweezer, tweezers :-)

[magmouse]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Call me a cynic but I'm taking the philosophical approach:

 

 

Er, I think that’s a big pot, not a cask….

 

Nick.

[Andy Hayter]

I am not sure if this is what @magmousemeans with his "pot" reference, but barrels were used to transport all sorts of goods - even China.  The advantage being that they can be moved by rolling on their rim rather than having to lift a box.  Those barrels not used for liquids would not need the same level of banding since there would be little inconvenience if the staves parted slightly.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Andy Hayter

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

These are heresy I suppose

Yes, stop that - Nick and Richard are quite bad enough in 7mm without you and Stephen showing what can be done in 4mm. Enough to give us mere mortals a complex!

[magmouse]

19 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Yes, stop that - Nick and Richard are quite bad enough in 7mm without you and Stephen showing what can be done in 4mm. Enough to give us mere mortals a complex!

 

You flatter me - and in any case, you have shown yourself capable of creating wonderful atmosphere with your modelling, which in my case (though not Richard's and Mikkel's) is still to be proven, as and when I actually build a layout.

 

Nick.

[Dave John]

So I shouldn't mention the CR , NB and GSWR, all of whom had wagons designated for the transport of empty casks ? 

 

Ok, I won't. 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

Er, I think that’s a big pot, not a cask….

 

1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

I am not sure if this is what @magmousemeans with his "pot" reference, but barrels were used to transport all sorts of goods - even China.  The advantage being that they can be moved by rolling on their rim rather than having to lift a box.  Those barrels not used for liquids would not need the same level of banding since there would be little inconvenience if the staves parted slightly.

 

Bother. Despite @Andy Hayter's defence there my belief that Diogenes of Sinope lived in a barrel appears to be incorrect and Gérôme correctly follows the 3rd Century author Diogenes Laërtius in depicting him living in a clay wine jar belonging to the temple of Cybele in Athens. [Wikipedia, of course.] All sloppy thinking is rightly brought to book here!

[Dave John]

If he tanked a pot 'o wine yon size its nae wonder he lost his troosers ..... 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Dave John said:

So I shouldn't mention the CR , NB and GSWR, all of whom had wagons designated for the transport of empty casks ? 

 

What I have never understood is:

1. What were such wagons used for in the opposite direction? and
2. Was there always a back-load for the wagons that conveyed the full casks?

In other words, I can't help suspecting that the net result was twice as many empty wagon journeys as there would have been if empty casks had gone back in the wagons that full casks had come out in - per Midland practice, as far as I can see. But I must be wrong...

[41516]

LNER Wagons Vol3, Tatlow pg 63

 

"703544, an ex-NB cask wagon....rated at 12 tons capacity, thereby suggesting that these vehicles were capable of conveying a load of full barrels, as much as empty ones" .  So very much puzzling why the majority appear to be marked for empty casks only.  Preventing overloading?

 

I don't know a great deal about the mixture of breweries, distilleries and glass works around Edinburgh that Tatlow suggests the wagons were primarily allocated for. Was it easier to have fewer but larger wagons bringing back empties where a high volume wagon was preferred to many smaller ones?

 

 

 

[magmouse]

Since it is the Scottish companies that had empty cask wagons, is it anything to to with the whiskey distilling business, that uses casks previously containing sherry, etc.?

 

Nick.