More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[41516]

That'll be me misreading the renumbering here and missing the bit about additional numbering on top.

 

D1 you say?

 

 

Casks are resin clones of EFE (?) products, destined for the bowels of cattle wagons and other places not readily seen by human eyes but need cask-shaped objects within.

Edited March 15, 2023 by 41516

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There are some plaster casts of sculpture panels from a Roman triumphal arch in the Ashmolean Museum. One shows the Emperor - Trajan or Hadrian, I forget which, looking on as a recruit has his height measured using a wooden gauge.

 

I can well imagine that there was a good practical advantage to having all the legionaries in one cohort about the same height - the little man in the middle would be a real nuisance when the order came to form testudo.

 

And given the pride taken in maximally stacked open wagons, as discussed up-thread and as you modelled recently, a minimum height for goods department staff makes sense. Either that, or an entry requirement of advanced circus skills.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Since I have seen several comments about the owners of new wagons not seeing them until after the war, that suggests that they went straight into the pool.

 

12 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

Presumably any new wagons delivered during WW2 pooling would have been ordered prior to the conflict. 

 

I've had pointed out to me article N712, L. Tavender, Coal Trade Wagons, p. 87. This states that the initial requisition order only applied to wagons extant at 3 September 1939. However, wagon production continued, with the consequence that additional requisition orders had to be made at intervals from April 1940 right up to 1947. Tavender, N577, p. 88, also suggests 5,000 PO wagons built 1941-47.

 

My informant also recalls reading somewhere (Bill Hudson, possibly) that if wagons built during wartime could be built and purchased for less than the government compensation payment, it was possible to make a profit from having them requisitioned. The biggest difficulty with this wheeze was obtaining sufficient timber.

[wagonbasher]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

I've had pointed out to me article N712, L. Tavender, Coal Trade Wagons, p. 87. This states that the initial requisition order only applied to wagons extant at 3 September 1939. However, wagon production continued, with the consequence that additional requisition orders had to be made at intervals from April 1940 right up to 1947. Tavender, N577, p. 88, also suggests 5,000 PO wagons built 1941-47.

 

My informant also recalls reading somewhere (Bill Hudson, possibly) that if wagons built during wartime could be built and purchased for less than the government compensation payment, it was possible to make a profit from having them requisitioned. The biggest difficulty with this wheeze was obtaining sufficient timber.

It crossed my mind that if new wagons were being ordered that there may be some financial advantage through the compensation process.  I even mentioned that to my wife Jane.  She wasn’t interested really but she smiled and nodded.

 

Andy

[wagonbasher]

On 14/03/2023 at 22:34, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, in the Great War there was no common use of PO wagons - that was an intrusion too far onto private property. So for a Great War layout, one still needs to pay attention to who the local coal merchants and factors were and which collieries they got their coal from.

 

At the start of the Second World War, PO wagons were requisitioned and, ultimately, compensation paid to the owners. What I've not understood is the status of PO wagons built during that war.

The reason for asking these questions is that I have dusted off ‘Tackeroo’ WW1 Cannock Chase training camp layout built by Andy York and myself but has gathered dust since 2018.  Looking to add to the rolling stock and expecting to be at the Stafford show in September.  There was significant demand for coal, up to 20,000 troops at Brocton needing heat and fuel for cooking and its own power station with 4 boilers serving Brocton and a similar size camp nearer Rugeley.

The railway was built and operated (until the ROD took over in 1916) by Cannock and Rugeley Colliery, later became West Cannock No 5.

 

There is a photo including a wagon taken at the power station with a Cannock and Rugeley Colliery wagon in view so that’s all logical.  I don’t think POW sides do a CRC transfer (what a joy flicking through the 1000+ transfers is).

 

First picture on this web page.  I think it is the Red Livery with just C R C on the side rather than a grey background which was an alternative livery. 
https://chasewaterrailwaymuseum.blog/2016/01/23/chasewater-railway-museum-a-photo-of-a-tackeroo-military-railway-loco-brocton-camp-power-station-plus-its-history/

 

Edited to add links

 

Andy
 

 

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

There is a photo including a wagon taken at the power station with a Cannock and Rugeley Colliery wagon in view so that’s all logical.  I don’t think POW sides do a CRC transfer (what a joy flicking through the 1000+ transfers is).

 

I'm generally interested in wagons of the Cannock Chase coalfield, though at c. 1902, as that fits with my general scheme of something loosely based on the WW&MJR.

[jamie92208]

If the photo of the colliery wagon it's possible to manipulate it then edit it and Powdides will then do transfers for you. I'ts a bit laborious but works.  I did all my  Dales private owners that way..the key is to use a command called edit perspective to bring the side into a proper rectangle. If anyone is interested I could show a couple of examples.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wagonbasher]

20 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

If the photo of the colliery wagon it's possible to manipulate it then edit it and Powdides will then do transfers for you. I'ts a bit laborious but works.  I did all my  Dales private owners that way..the key is to use a command called edit perspective to bring the side into a proper rectangle. If anyone is interested I could show a couple of examples.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dapol have two livery versions of CRC wagons.  I suspect therefore that some works photos are available, they won’t have tried two hard to find source material.  I guess there is an image or two in the Turton PO books.  How do I find out without buying about 17 books.  My book case couldn’t take it anyway.  Has anyone index’s them, don’t mind buying 1 or 2….

 

Andy

[Nick Holliday]

41 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

Dapol have two livery versions of CRC wagons.  I suspect therefore that some works photos are available, they won’t have tried two hard to find source material.  I guess there is an image or two in the Turton PO books.  How do I find out without buying about 17 books.  My book case couldn’t take it anyway.  Has anyone index’s them, don’t mind buying 1 or 2….

 

Andy

Searchable index on the Lightmoor Press website.

[wagonbasher]

1 minute ago, Nick Holliday said:

Searchable index on the Lightmoor Press website.

Just found it, incredible resource, Thank you

 

Andy

[jamie92208]

In reply to my post above here's one of the examples.   This photo appeared in Vol 5 of Bill Hudson's PO books, the smaller one published IIRC by Oakwood Press.

The caption was added by Stewart Lisles for a Powerpoint presentation.  This was scanned and put through a perspective correction to make the side of the wagon rectangular and the correct size to fit a standard Slaters 7 plank wagon kit.   I then rather laboriously edited the image in a bit map editor on an old Word Perfect programme that I've got.   This eventually produced a sharp image.   That was emailed to Powsides who then produced the transfers and added them to their range.

This was the result.

The method did work well so if transfers aren't available but a photo it's worth the effort.  

I used various other image sources including an advert drawing from a Methodist circuit magazine to get one of the Settle coal merchants livery details.   Another one came from the Charles Roberts order books at the NRM coupled with personal memories from an older village inhabitant at Long Preston.

 

Jamie

 

1

 

[jamie92208]

9 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

Searchable index on the Lightmoor Press website.

Whereabouts on the website is it please.  All I can find is one for the book titles.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Whereabouts on the website is it please.  All I can find is one for the book titles.

 

Direct link here:

https://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf

A search on "Lightmoor index" finds it.

 

It is updated from time to time; the current version includes Turton's Fifteenth and Kelham's Wiltshire, though not yet Turner's South-East Pt. 2.

[jamie92208]

Thanks for that Stephen. Several of the Dale's ones are in but several others aren't .some food for thought.i've just found a photo with one end of the word Ribblesdale visible on a 6 plane wagon. IIwas told that their wagons had red lettering on a grey background by a former quarry manager.  Food for thought.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

I've been getting my fingers grubby with paint - I do find they are my most effective weathering tool:

 

 

This is supposed to replicate this, from a photograph taken at Devonport in 1903:

 

 

What seems to have happened is that some light-coloured substance - lime perhaps? - has spilled down the gap between the floor of the wagon and the door, when the latter was hanging straight down, despite the batten that is supposed to plug the gap; hence the discolouration looks to be streaked upwards, once the door is lifted back up. 

 

The wagon next to No. 54862 looks to have had even more lime or whatever spilt on it.

 

Looking at my model, I do think the discolouration above the number looks a bit too much like a thumb-print at the moment...

 

I think this wagon will get a load of bricks, as in the Devonport photo.

 

Its fellow, No. 41516, has had the same basic weathering treatment but without the lime-or-whatever:

 

 

Basically a rough splurge of off-black followed by washing most off with thinners and a bit of rubbing with fingers, mostly. Unfortunately, the Fox waterslide transfers haven't liked this treatment too much, despite having been matt varnished: they tend to accumulate the black. Compare the running number, which used the BGS rub-down digits.

 

I had been thinking of this wagon - which is the one cut-down from a salvaged Coopercraft O4 kit that I had from @41516 - as a candidate for a sheeted straw load but I need to look at my photos of such again to see if that would hide the holes in the ends where the sheet rail used to pivot.

 

I've also progressed with painting of the Midland D294 medium cattle wagon. My local Halfords being out of their grey plastic primer, I used their white primer, and was then reminded how poorly this takes Precision paint. I had the same trouble with the Mousa LNW D32 covered goods wagon right near the start of this thread. Anyway, the white dry-brushing on the GW open is practice towards doing all the overflowing limewash on this!

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[magmouse]

I do like these! I'd thought about the lime/whatever spillage, probably inspired by the same photo, but haven't so far had the courage to go for it. You may have emboldened me...

 

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Looking at my model, I do think the discolouration above the number looks a bit too much like a thumb-print at the moment...

 

Yes - I wonder if using a cotton bud would work as a print-free artificial finger? Or just use disposable latex gloves?

 

28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

a candidate for a sheeted straw load but I need to look at my photos of such again to see if that would hide the holes in the ends where the sheet rail used to pivot.

 

The sheet won't hide the hole, but overhanging straw probably could - especially if you fill the hole and add a spot of paint, so you are just trying to hide any slight imperfections in the repair, rather than the hole itself.

 

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I used their white primer, and was then reminded how poorly this takes Precision paint.

 

Which is odd, as IIRC Precision recommend a white base for their colours. Is it something specifically about the Halford's paint, or white in general?

 

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I wonder if using a cotton bud would work as a print-free artificial finger? 

 

That is the recommended technique but I've found they shed fibres. Am I using the wrong buds?

 

6 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Which is odd, as IIRC Precision recommend a white base for their colours. Is it something specifically about the Halford's paint, or white in general?

 

It seems to be specific to the Halfords white primer - no such problem with their grey or red. I've not tried Precision paint with any other white primer.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Compound2632

[Andy Hayter]

I might suggest that rather than lime, the white streaks could well be china clay residue.

[41516]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Am I using the wrong buds?

 

Tamiya make some with pointed ends for modelling that don't shed fibres as readily as the everyday types.

[Compound2632]

Just now, Andy Hayter said:

I might suggest that rather than lime, the white streaks could well be china clay residue.

 

I suppose that would fit the locale.

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Might 54862 have been in the same state as her neighbour and then had the sides cleaned  wiped to unobscure the markings? I'd taken the discolouration particularly obvious on the RHS to be chalk, but I'm not sure. 'Cos if the door got like that whilst hanging down, what onearth happened to the wagon in the foreground?!

 

Really lovely wagons @Compound2632, as ever. Very much setting a standard to aim for.

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

That is the recommended technique but I've found they shed fibres. Am I using the wrong buds?

 

I've had some success using eye makeup sponge brushes (and no, I don't use eye makeup).

 

And yes, I agree about Halfords' white primer.

 

Dave 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Dave Hunt

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That is the recommended technique but I've found they shed fibres. Am I using the wrong buds?

I wasn’t writing from experience, unfortunately - I can well believe they shed fibres. @41516’s recommendation might be the answer.

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been getting my fingers grubby with paint - I do find they are my most effective weathering tool:

 

 

This is supposed to replicate this, from a photograph taken at Devonport in 1903:

 

 

What seems to have happened is that some light-coloured substance - lime perhaps? - has spilled down the gap between the floor of the wagon and the door, when the latter was hanging straight down, despite the batten that is supposed to plug the gap; hence the discolouration looks to be streaked upwards, once the door is lifted back up.

Nice piece of observation and deduction Stephen - and nice replication of it on the model! I love it when someone models something unsual...

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

I love it when someone models something unsual...

 

But is it unusual? Or usual?