More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[WFPettigrew]

15 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

f You're sailing in from the Baltic and the cargo you are carrying is destined for the northwest part of the UK, it's far simpler to dock somewhere like Barrow, rather than dock on the east coast and haul the cargo cross country by train.

 

I guess the bottom line will be, err, the bottom line.  And as well as "simpler" it was also probably cheaper to go round the coast by ship, compared to the cost of carrying all the timber across the country by rail, which is really why they would have done it?!

[WFPettigrew]

More Sankey - for LNWR and MR wagon lovers, ref 5821:

 

Ulverston station with a train coming off the goods loop behind the up platform (platform 3 - the down was and is both platform 1 and 2).  The long gone Ulverston East box visible here. 

 

[Simond]

I felt that 5 sovereigns in 1905 must have been an impressive amount of money, but the Bank of England inflation calculator suggests it was "only" £495, so marginally more than a day return nowadays.

 

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

 

frankly I think the BoE calculator is not telling the whole truth...  If one assumed a constant 6% inflation, it would be more than £5440, and I imagine it would be possible to get a helicopter to Aylesbury for that.

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

More Sankey - for LNWR and MR wagon lovers, ref 5821:

 

Those modern LNWR D88 and MR D633 / D664 vans really provide a sense of scale for the 19th-century LNWR D32 / D33 covered goods wagon!

 

Presumably a Furness horsebox on the right? Or is it a special cattle van? The perforated doors to the end locker are unusual - feed trough at that end? @WFPettigrew - recacted while I was editing.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Compound2632

[phil_sutters]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hence also Baltic timber imports at Bridgwater, which I think we've had mentioned.

... and Highbridge Wharf and Surrey Docks in London.

[WFPettigrew]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Presumably a Furness horsebox on the right? Or is it a special cattle van? The perforated doors to the end locker are unusual - feed trough at that end?

 

Yes it is.  Sorry I was going to double check it before I posted the picture then forgot! 

 

It's a FR Diagram 38 horsebox dating back to the 1870s. 

 

This drawing by the late Ross Pochin is part of the Cumbrian Railways Association Shillcock collection. 

[MrWolf]

Does anyone know what the outside frame van with the very low roof is nearest the canopy? 

[WFPettigrew]

2 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

outside frame van with the very low roof

 

I think you mean the one Stephen referred to above - it's marked LNWR on the sides, and the number is 54630.  Stephen says it is a D32 or D33 van. 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Does anyone know what the outside frame van with the very low roof is nearest the canopy? 

 

Just beaten to it. D32 was the even more antique type with the door on one side only; D33 introduced the innovation of a door on both sides in 1894!

 

 

The highest numbers listed in LNWR Wagons Vol. 2 for D32 are 53165 and 54985, so it's possible 54630 is D32. There aren't any D33 numbers in this range, most being above 64xxx.

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

D32 was the even more antique type with the door on one side only; D33 introduced the innovation of a door on both sides in 1894!

 

Admitting almost complete ignorance on LNWR wagon matters, are these (D32 and D33) roof door?  That one in Ulverston has prominent bands on the roof which look like they are runners for a roof door, but of course might not be?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, WFPettigrew said:

Admitting almost complete ignorance on LNWR wagon matters, are these (D32 and D33) roof door?  That one in Ulverston has prominent bands on the roof which look like they are runners for a roof door, but of course might not be?

 

Yes, a solid timber sliding roof door:

 

 

For a prototype overhead view, see e.g.:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways lnwra3641.]

 

Please read the caption (via link above). Note the difference between the solid sliding hatch used by the LNWR and the canvas cover (with reinforcing battens) used by the L&YR.

[jwealleans]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

the canvas cover (with reinforcing battens) used by the L&YR.

 

.. and also the NER - there's a G2 there at the far end of the cut of 3 nearest the camera.

[jamie92208]

I've had chance to peruse the email that I had from John Sykes the author of the article in the HMRS Journal that mentioned Beadman wagons at  Ingrow.   He sent me the attached image of which the ownership is uncertain so please respect it.   There are four PO wagons in what is presumably the cripple siding at Beadmans works in Keighley.  The left hand one is a Skipton Rock almost certainly built by Beadman.  Next is what John describes at Ulverston Cooperative Society Ltd, then PD Bilbrough a coal merchant based at Barnoldswick.  The right hand one is another Skipton Rock.   I have asked John for a bettre scn but he says that it's as good as it gets.  Perhaps more info will drop out of the Midland Registers in due course.   I now know of 427 wagons built by Beadman.

Jamie

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

.. and also the NER - there's a G2 there at the far end of the cut of 3 nearest the camera.

 

The Warwickshire Railways caption says that's a L&Y vehicle, which I'm inclined to believe. It's a D3 (Geen kit illustrated):

 

 

Not much bigger than the LNWR vans. The NER G2 was a rather larger, more modern vehicle, with a drop flap lower door. According to North Eastern Record Vol. 2, they were built from 1903; since the photo is dated 1903, it would be touch and go for one to appear in Brum. But as you say, they had a similar type of roof hatch cover, as did the earlier G1 wagons, or some of them, lacking from the Geen kit I built 35 years ago:

 

[WFPettigrew]

14 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Next is what John describes at Ulverston Cooperative Society Ltd,

 

Jamie, the local coop was the Swarthmoor and Ulverston (Swarthmoor being a village just to the west of Ulverston and one of the birthplaces of the Quaker movement which is probably significant in the setting up of the coop!).   

 

There is apparently a photo in Turton's 14th of what is probably No 2, for those who have these things - but Keith Turton wrote an article about the Coop No. 2 in the Journal of the Cumbrian Railways Association (Vol 11 No 9, Feb 2015).   

 

In this article he states that the coop was established in 1861 and owned two ships during the 1880s and 1890s, but bought its first wagons in 1896.  Orders were placed with Chas Roberts between 1896 and 1910 and they were delivered new to various collieries in Yorkshire (again showing the preference for Yorkshire house coal in the Furness area even though the Lancashire and West Cumberland coalfields were closer). 

 

The first wagon ordered in 1896 was No 3 along with Nos 9 and 10 later that year!  Four years later 11 and 12 were purchased.   Then in 1901 along came 7, then 4, then 1, in three separate orders!  No. 2, the one whose Chas Roberts works portrait survives, was buit in 1910.  And - as per my earlier comment - this one had cupboard doors, one of very few Chas Roberts ever produced.  So all the previous ones had conventional  (for England) drop side doors. 

 

Turton says it was painted lead colour with black ironwork and white letters shaded black.   

 

But a follow up letter in the next Journal cites a differing history in Bill Hudson's Private Owner Wagons Vol 1 drawing on information sourced from the coop itself.  That states that the livery of No 2 was "light green" with black ironwork, but some wagons were painted brown. The letter writer Robert Heywood suggests that the chaotic number sequence in the Chas Roberts orders was down to replacing life expired wagons. 

 

Now, I don't know whether Robert Heywood is correct - if the Coop had bought wagons as well as ships in 1861, then some of these would be become life expired around the time of the Chas Roberts orders.   Equally though, it may be that this is another example of a private owner numbering a fleet to look bigger than it actually is.   I am not sure we will know. 

POWsides do a transfer, only in 10mm seemingly currently, and they at least have gone with green for number 2.   https://www.powsides.co.uk/product.php/swarthmoor__ulverston_co-operative_society/?k=:::5727944:0

 

Not sure whether this helps or just adds further confusion?!

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

Hope this helps. 

 

[jwealleans]

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

that's a L&Y vehicle, which I'm inclined to believe. It's a D3

 

Now I see it on the large screen I agree.   I must have had another photo from this collection in mind.

 

[jamie92208]

Perhaps it had developed a hot box or some other fault and been dropped off for repair. 

 

Jamie

Edited September 11, 2023 by jamie92208

[Pete Haitch]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, a solid timber sliding roof door:

 

 

For a prototype overhead view, see e.g.:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways lnwra3641.]

 

Please read the caption (via link above). Note the difference between the solid sliding hatch used by the LNWR and the canvas cover (with reinforcing battens) used by the L&YR.

Newbie question - sorry - are the vans with roof hatches, 'Henson Patent' wagons? Asking as I'm trying to produce some GWR Henson vans and finding pictures hard to come by. First batch (including an improbable grey one) awaiting transfers and Dullcoat.

[WFPettigrew]

10 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Perhaps it had developed a hot box or some other fault and been dropped off for repair. 

 

Agree.  I think it is likely that Swarthmoor and Ulverston would have used the wagon repair shop at Lindal for planned workshop visits, although that is not totally a given.  It would have required a 2 mile journey in the wrong direction to get there - and if Beadmans quoted a good price on the route back to load up again, then using them to do some repairs would make some sense.   

 

I should have added earlier - No 2 when new was sent to Pope and Pearson's Altofts Colliery at Normanton, according to the Turton article.  Whether the Coop retained that pit as a supplier by the time of your photo is of course open to some question. 

[MarcD]

Having spent a plesent couple of hours going throught the Sankey collection I came across something Bob Essery couldn't fnd for his book a D301 in Midland livery

 

 

Photographed in Vickers shipyard Barrow

 

Marc

[MrWolf]

3 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

I think you mean the one Stephen referred to above - it's marked LNWR on the sides, and the number is 54630.  Stephen says it is a D32 or D33 van. 

 

Yes, I was halfway out of the door to go and meet the Memsahib, so misread @Compound2632's post. A very interesting relic that is, thanks for the identification.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

Having spent a plesent couple of hours going throught the Sankey collection I came across something Bob Essery couldn't fnd for his book a D301 in Midland livery

 

 

Photographed in Vickers shipyard Barrow

 

Excellent spot! But the d--n door is down over the numberplate...

 

Now, I was looking the other day at the scan of the MRSC copy of Drg. 1530 for these wagons [MRSC 88-D0866]. It has an annotation in red "Without Bottom Doors for S & D Joint Line", which is no surprise, but also for Special Work Order 1478, 22 Sept 1919. These are for the addition of vertical straps between the knees and the corner plates - i.e. on the centre line of the M and R, as seen on D607 and D633A, on the outside only, with the use of countersunk bolts into the woodwork in place of washer straps on the inside of the wagon. My hypothesis is that this refers to repair and reconstruction of the bodywork of these wagons after return from service with the ROD in France. From the information we discussed upthread, it seems the War Department wanted 10-ton open wagons; the 1,000 D301 wagons were the only such apart from those D663A that had been built from 1913 onwards so probably pretty well all of them went to France.

 

But who was "G" with his 903 wagons?

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

Newbie question - sorry - are the vans with roof hatches, 'Henson Patent' wagons? Asking as I'm trying to produce some GWR Henson vans and finding pictures hard to come by. First batch (including an improbable grey one) awaiting transfers and Dullcoat.

 

Not exactly - Henson's patent was for a specific design or group of designs, which the LNWR D32 is descended from, Henson being a London & Birmingham man. Many Irish vans were Henson's patent or closely related to. There was a discussion upthread, which I hope helps:

 

 

[Pete Haitch]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not exactly - Henson's patent was for a specific design or group of designs, which the LNWR D32 is descended from, Henson being a London & Birmingham man. Many Irish vans were Henson's patent or closely related to. There was a discussion upthread, which I hope helps:

 

 

Many thanks @Compound2632, I'm finding that researching 19th century wagons is "interesting".

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

But who was "G" with his 903 wagons?

 

More of the 903 were seen in the photo at North Lonsdale Ironworks that I posted this morning (now a page ago). 

 

But that doesn't answer your question.  Will go digging..