More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

More from the MR Carriage & Wagon Committee minutes, this time with some real implications for modelling:

 

Minute 4023 of 4 April 1902

 

New standard 10 ton goods and coal wagon

Read correspondence between the General Manager and Mr Bain as to the adoption of oil axleboxes in the place of grease axleboxes upon new wagons,

Resolved

That oil axleboxes be used on new wagons built in future.

 

This ties in with the Midland Railway Study Centre's copy of Drg 550 [MRSC Item 88-D1879] for the standard 8 ton high sided wagon, D299, which is drawn with oil axleboxes and is endorsed "For and after the last 242 wagons of lot 513". Lot 513 was the last lot of D299, for 2,000 wagons, entered in the lot list on 3 April 1901. So apart from anything else, it gives an indication of the rate at which wagons of this lot were being built - about 34 per week - and hence an estimate of when the lot was completed - around the end of May 1902. (Assuming the committee's resolution went into immediate effect, of course.)

 

What this means for the modeller, building Slater's kits for Midland wagons, is that when building the kit for the D357 covered goods wagon - the 14' 11" long van, not the 16' 6" van - one has either to replace the molded grease axleboxes with oil boxes, to represent one of the 2,967 vans built to lots 562 and 625 in 1903-5, or modify the sliding door runner to represent one of the unknown number (but less than 164) built to lot 309 in 1892. 

[Western Star]

I appreciate a D299 - who does not appreciate a D299!

 

With so many admirers then this question ought to be an easy one...  I recall a photo of a D299 on a quay side tip dropping a load into a barge or similar.  Can I find that photo now?  No!

 

Who can either post a copy of the photo or supply a link to the image.

 

thank you, Graham

Edited June 14, 2022 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Western Star said:

I appreciate a D299 - who does not appreciate a D299!

 

With so many admirers then this question ought to be an easy one...  I recall a photo of a D299 on a quay side tip dropping a load into a barge or similar.  Can I find that photo now?  No!

 

Who can either post a copy of the photo or supply a link to the image.

 

thank you, Graham

 

I can't recall a photo of a D299 being side-tipped; are you possibly thinking of one we had of a couple of Coppice Colliery wagons at Poplar Docks:

 

 

[Embedded link to NRM DY 1797]

 

Or possibly this one of a Bradwell Wood (Staffordshire Chemical Co.) wagon, also at Poplar:

 

 

[The provenance of this photo was given when first posted. TBC]

 

The nearest I've got to a Midland wagon being tipped at Poplar is this D673 on the quayside at Victoria dock, though I think it's about to be turned for end tipping:

 

 

[Embedded link to NRM DY2830]

 

The closest I've got to D299 being tipped are these D351 wagons being end-tipped at Kings Lynn (can't end tip a D299 - no end door):

 

 

[Embedded link to NRM DY2803]

 

One wouldn't have immediately thought of Kings Lynn as an export port for coal, but I suppose it was the nearest East Coast port for the East Midlands coalfields served by the Midland, once the Saxby & Bourne line was opened in 1893.

 

 

 

[Western Star]

On 14/06/2022 at 10:07, Compound2632 said:

 

I can't recall a photo of a D299 being side-tipped, closest I've got to D299 being tipped are these D351 wagons being end-tipped at Kings Lynn (can't end tip a D299 - no end door):

Stephen @Compound2632,

Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways for the photo of which I am thinking shows a MR wagon being tipped through an end door... so a photo of a D351 and we ought to appreciate those alongside the D299.  I am sure that the image is of a Midland wagon rather than a PO wagon because of the large "M" and "R" on the side sheeting.

 

The reason that I am asking is that I thought that the wagon was being tipped at Lydney whilst Ian Pope tells me that the location is Bullo Pill.  So the reason for asking is not D299 versus D351; the reason is the question "why would a MR wagon be tipped at a dock in the FoD?" and to resolve that question I wish to know "Lydney or Bullo".

 

Back to the original post - anyone able to help with either the original image or a link to that image?

 

regards, Graham

Edited June 22, 2022 by Western Star

[Compound2632]

Ah, now if you had given that context in the first place... I'm fairly sure the photo you are thinking of has not been posted here. At the very least I don't remember it!

  

38 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Thank you for pointing out the error of my ways for the photo of which I am thinking shows a MR wagon being tipped through an end door... so a photo of a D351 and we ought to appreciate those alongside the D299.  I am sure that the image is of a Midland wagon rather than a PO wagon because of the large "M" and "R" on the side sheeting.

 

There were three generations of Midland end-door wagons:

•  8 ton, 5 plank, D351. Drg. 790, 9,000 built 1890-1900;
• 12 ton, 6 plank, D352, Drg. 2156, 4,000 built 1906-9, following on from an experimental half-dozen in 1904;
• 12 ton, 7 plank, D673, Drg, 3850, 6,200 built 1913-19, and Drg. 5106, 2,950 built 1920-22.

Without further information, your photo could be of any of those.

 

36 minutes ago, Western Star said:

The reason that I am asking is that I thought that the wagon was being tipped at Lydney whilst Ian Pope tells me that the location is Bullo Pill.  So the reason for asking is not D299 versus D351; the reason is the question "why would a MR wagon be tipped at a dock in the FoD?" and to resolve that question Ian and I wish to know "Lydney or Bullo".

 

The other question is, of course, date. If the wagon carries its number on the plank below the M, the photo is definitely post-Great War, when such wagons were pooled, so no further discussion is need to explain its presence in the Forest of Dean. If pre-Great War, one has the simple fact that the Severn & Wye was a Midland & Great Western joint line, so at Lydney it is on home ground. Bullo Pill would be harder to explain, so I would take the Midland wagon as evidence that the location was Lydney!

Edited June 14, 2022 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The other question is, of course, date. If the wagon carries its number on the plank below the M, the photo is definitely post-Great War, when such wagons were pooled, so no further discussion is need to explain its presence in the Forest of Dean. If pre-Great War, one has the simple fact that the Severn & Wye was a Midland & Great Western joint line, so at Lydney it is on home ground. Bullo Pill would be harder to explain, so I would take the Midland wagon as evidence that the location was Lydney!

Ah but.....

 

When Ian Pope says that he has no knowledge of any MR wagon being tipped at Lydney then I rather wish to see the image again so as to close the matter.  If the location is Lydney then I shall be pressing Ian as to which colliery or quarry was loading the wagon (because I have several end-door wagons from Slaters and I rather wish to use them on our FoD layout).

 

regards, Graham

[Compound2632]

Just now, Western Star said:

Ah but.....

 

When Ian Pope says that he has no knowledge of any MR wagon being tipped at Lydney then I rather wish to see the image again so as to close the matter.  If the location is Lydney then I shall be pressing Ian as to which colliery or quarry was loading the wagon (because I have several end-door wagons from Slaters and I rather wish to use them on our FoD layout).

 

Ah, so you have the Slater's D351 kit. Such a shame they never produced that in 4 mm scale. If you're pre-Great War, then frankly I think you can reasonably suppose that the wagon was supplied empty to any colliery at which output was exceeding the capacity of the colliery's own wagons on hand. The only indication would be the wagon label, which even in S7 I imagine one would struggle to model so that it was legible. But this does depend on what your model is of - a specific colliery, the docks at Lydney, or some part of the Severn & Wye between the two - where the choice of location would presumably restrict the number of collieries from which you would see traffic. 

[Western Star]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 I think you can reasonably suppose that the wagon was supplied empty to any colliery at which output was exceeding the capacity of the colliery's own wagons on hand.

 

... this does depend on what your model is of ... where the choice of location would presumably restrict the number of collieries from which you would see traffic. 

The layout is a "what if"...  what if the GWR & MR agreed to enhance the facilities at the site of Norchard colliery and provide public platforms for the miners?  The MR wanted to build a low level platform whilst the GWR wanted to build a high level platform... so they compromised and did both with the result is that which you see today.  This means that we can run trip workings in and out of our colliery (aka Norchard) at the low level and service workings to collieries along the high level to Tufts Jcn and further north (eg. Princess Royal, Parkend, Lightmoor plus operators including Dean Forest, Phoenix, Leadbeter).  As our layout is south of Tufts and the bottom end of the Mineral Loop then we can have, legitimately, any PO wagons from the Edwardian era (on those days when Lightmoor was not exiting fulls via the Lightmoor Railway and Bilson yard).

 

The idea of D351 in a train of PO wagons does appeal.

 

regards, Graham

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

The layout is a "what if"...  what if the GWR & MR agreed to enhance the facilities at the site of Norchard colliery and provide public platforms for the miners?  The MR wanted to build a low level platform whilst the GWR wanted to build a high level platform... so they compromised and did both with the result is that which you see today.  This means that we can run trip workings in and out of our colliery (aka Norchard) at the low level and service workings to collieries along the high level to Tufts Jcn and further north (eg. Princess Royal, Parkend, Lightmoor plus operators including Dean Forest, Phoenix, Leadbeter).  As our layout is south of Tufts and the bottom end of the Mineral Loop then we can have, legitimately, any PO wagons from the Edwardian era (on those days when Lightmoor was not exiting fulls via the Lightmoor Railway and Bilson yard).

 

I shall look forward to seeing this, assuming it is destined for the exhibition circuit, and particularly your wagons, which I have been told are almost on a par with Mike Osborne's.

[Western Star]

Stephen @Compound2632

 

I shall let you decide which part of your post is funny, at least one comment is and maybe there might be another humourous phrase.

 

I have said, openly and frequently, that I am a great admirer of Mike's work and have taken inspiration from his results (read as "copied blatantly").  If only Mike could cope with wagons from Swindon then he might be dangerous.

 

regards, Graham

[Western Star]

3 hours ago, Western Star said:

When Ian Pope says that he has no knowledge of any MR wagon being tipped at Lydney then I rather wish to see the image again so as to close the matter.

Much to my surprise I have remembered where I saw the photo....  in Ian's book on FoD PO wagons...  and dash it, the caption does say Bullo Pill.  I have to agree with that attribution because I can see now that the tip is not one of those at Lydney, the surrounds to the tip are just not correct.

 

The MR content is a single wagon, end doors are presumed because the wagon is being tipped hence D351 (a diagram which feels that a thread of appreciation is overdue).  The condition of the photo and the state of the wagon suggest that there is no number on the side sheeting so probably taken in the Edwardian era.

 

Ian has suggested to me that the load could be stone rather than coal, I shall pursue that thought with him.

 

regards, Graham

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Western Star said:

Much to my surprise I have remembered where I saw the photo....  in Ian's book on FoD PO wagons... 

 

That's one I don't have - and is now out of print.

 

2 minutes ago, Western Star said:

The MR content is a single wagon, end doors are presumed because the wagon is being tipped hence D351 (a diagram which feels that a thread of appreciation is overdue). 

 

It is a 5-plank wagon in the photo, them?

 

I agree that one should not neglect D351 - the c. 1902 Midland modeller should have one for every seven D299s. I do have two in (stalled) progress, converted from reconstitued second-hand Slaters D299s, together with a 51L whitemetal kit lurking somewhere... 

[Regularity]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

One wouldn't have immediately thought of Kings Lynn as an export port for coal, but I suppose it was the nearest East Coast port for the East Midlands coalfields served by the Midland, once the Saxby & Bourne line was opened in 1893.

It was a major export traffic, and Kings Lynn was a very well established trading partner with the Hanseatic league going back centuries. There was a lot of Baltic timber imported through Lynn, with coal going out, quite possibly making money in both directions. A few hundred years ago, it was the East Midlands and East Anglia that were the most populous and wealthiest parts of the country, which is why the East Midlands dialect came to dominate modern English.
 

[billbedford]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

One wouldn't have immediately thought of Kings Lynn as an export port for coal, but I suppose it was the nearest East Coast port for the East Midlands coalfields served by the Midland, once the Saxby & Bourne line was opened in 1893.

 

They could be coaling trawlers, or more likely, herring drifters. 

[Compound2632]

A bit of light surfing quickly brings up some references to the Kings Lynn coal trade. Most articles deal with the pre-railway age situation, when Kings Lynn was a major port for importing coal from Newcastle, with the Ouse providing an inland distribution network. There was a dispute in the early 17th century arising from King John in the early 13th century having given Lynn exemption from tolls levied throughout the kingdom and Newcastle the right to impose tolls on coal throughout the kingdom, as discussed here. (A Bad King. It's almost as if he'd set up a precedent for our present Northern Ireland question.) For the 19th century, this rather more anecdotal discussion does give some history of Lynn's development as a coal export port, including a photo of a ship at the coal drop. (The poster of the photo says they can't tell if the ship under the coal drop is taking on or discharging but surely it's evident that a coal drop is for loading?) There's mention of export to Sweden, with a "Kings Lynn Coal Brig" as a distinct type of vessel, but there's also an implication that there was still coal coming in from Newcastle.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

There's mention of export to Sweden, with a "Kings Lynn Coal Brig" as a distinct type of vessel, but there's also an implication that there was still coal coming in from Newcastle.

Aye: different coals for different uses.

[Rail-Online]

An extreme edge of a negative reveals another MR wagon, could be end door or D299.  Photos of these in LMS livery are not too common.  Perhaps the number helps?  LMS/MR 25954 on 27th May 1933 at Yarmouth South Town station.  The other wagon is GNR. 

 

Cheers Tony

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

An extreme edge of a negative reveals another MR wagon, could be end door or D299.

 

It is indeed - you're getting good at this! How widespread was the diagonal strip for end door wagons, by 1933? The lack of the stripe suggests that it's more likely a D299 than D351. Roughly two-thirds of D299 were built with 10A axleboxes as seen here; all D351 had them. The ratio of D299 with 10A axleboxes to D351 was about 9:2, that's another measure of the odds of this being D299.

 

28 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

Photos of these in LMS livery are not too common. 

 

Reasonably frequent in first LMS livery. I have recently been shown the first photo I have seen of a D299 in second LMS livery. It's also one of the best photos I've seen of the interior of a D299. What I've seen is a crop from a scan from a book, so I have as yet no information on date - the book is Janet Russell's Great Western Horse Power, if anyone has a copy to hand. the wagon is No. 81667; it's a view from an embankment over a line of wagons, with some carts behind...

 

28 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

Perhaps the number helps? 

 

Any Midland wagon numbering records were lost long ago, with the exception of special wagons. So it's photographs like this that are helping me build up a database. The best one can say is that it would be wrong to put that number on a model of a van...

 

The first wagon No. 25954 was an addition to stock in the second half of 1873, almost certainly a low-side wagon built by Oldbury, Gloucester, or S.J. Claye. That's a good fit with renewal by a D299 built in the later 1890s. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Compound2632

[Adam88]

On 17/06/2022 at 11:29, Compound2632 said:

Reasonably frequent in first LMS livery. I have recently been shown the first photo I have seen of a D299 in second LMS livery. It's also one of the best photos I've seen of the interior of a D299. What I've seen is a crop from a scan from a book, so I have as yet no information on date - the book is Janet Russell's Great Western Horse Power, if anyone has a copy to hand. the wagon is No. 81667; it's a view from an embankment over a line of wagons, with some carts behind...

 

 

[Compound2632]

Thanks, @Adam88. Of Anderson shelters, Wikipedia says: "Anderson shelters were issued free to all householders who earned less than £5 a week. Those with a higher income were charged £7 for their shelter. One and a half million shelters of this type were distributed between February 1939 and the outbreak of war. During the war a further 2.1 million were erected. Large numbers were manufactured at John Summers & Sons ironworks at Shotton on Deeside with production peaking at 50,000 units per week." So this photo could in fact date from 1939, but probably no later than 1940. 

 

The comment on the return to horse power is interesting, being the opposite of the situation in the first world war, where military demand for horses drove the increased use of motor drays - but initially electric rather than petrol. In our present day, horses no longer being an option, we're finally being driven back to electric delivery vehicles!

 

Anyway, that's my first sighting of a D299 in post-1936 livery. As mentioned above, it's got LMS oil axleboxes and, I infer, both side independent brakes with LMS long levers.

[DGO]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The comment on the return to horse power is interesting, being the opposite of the situation in the first world war, where military demand for horses drove the increased use of motor drays - but initially electric rather than petrol. In our present day, horses no longer being an option, we're finally being driven back to electric delivery vehicles!

 

The Germans during WW2 had similar problems so many of their supply vehicles and much of the farming was done with horse power, fuel being in particular short supply for Germany 

 

[phil_sutters]

On 14/06/2022 at 15:29, Compound2632 said:

 

That's one I don't have - and is now out of print.

 

 

It is a 5-plank wagon in the photo, them?

 

I agree that one should not neglect D351 - the c. 1902 Midland modeller should have one for every seven D299s. I do have two in (stalled) progress, converted from reconstitued second-hand Slaters D299s, together with a 51L whitemetal kit lurking somewhere... 

Is this the photo in question? It is in the file I made when researching my family's Forest of Dean connections. 

[phil_sutters]

As soon as I had made the last post I realized that that one had come from this blog, a couple of photos down 

 

[Schooner]

Informative/useful for the wagon...sure...

 

...but...

 

Check out that Stroud barge! Can't think of another pic of one at work like this, so this photo is a great reference for this winter's project, many thanks for re-posting :) 

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Is this the photo in question? It is in the file I made when researching my family's Forest of Dean connections. 

 

Definitely D351. The diagonal strap is just visible where the R is painted over it and the hinge bar can be seen projecting above the end. The end door catch has yet to be released.