CAF confirms UK assembly plant

[DavidB-AU]

Spanish rolling stock manufacturer CAF confirmed to Railway Gazette on July 14 that it is preparing to open a UK assembly plant to support the contracts it has won in recent months.

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/business/single-view/view/caf-confirms-uk-assembly-plant.html

[Talltim]

I thought they were aggressively bidding because they had overcapacity in Spain?

[pete_mcfarlane]

(Tongue only slightly in cheek)

 

I wonder if they're viewing a post-Brexit World, where the UK Government can favour 'British' built stuff and it's easier to win train orders if you have a UK plant like all of your competitors. So do final assembly in the UK of Spanish produced components, and shout 'It's British!' to all and sundry.  

[tamperman36]

does that really matter as long  as its creating new jobs for british people, You never know they may even use British steel aswell to cut down on import duty

[pete_mcfarlane]

It does matter when you're using the 'British built' angle to apply political pressure to buy your products, when they have very little British content, ahead of stuff assembled abroad that have a higher British manufactured content. 

[Talltim]

I read somewhere that the amount of steel used to build the trains for the uk for a year is abou 1/2 a days's output of the remaining UK steel industry. And of course a lot of trains are aluminium

[Bon Accord]

(Tongue only slightly in cheek)

 

I wonder if they're viewing a post-Brexit World, where the UK Government can favour 'British' built stuff and it's easier to win train orders if you have a UK plant like all of your competitors. So do final assembly in the UK of Spanish produced components, and shout 'It's British!' to all and sundry.  

 

The Trident replacement project is exactly the same. They'll have a "Made in Britain" sticker on them, but most of the technology and materials will come from abroad.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Bon Accord

['CHARD]

It does matter when you're using the 'British built' angle to apply political pressure to buy your products, when they have very little British content, ahead of stuff assembled abroad that have a higher British manufactured content. 

 

In the final analysis it comes down to price, price, compliance, price, capital cost, price, price, life cycle cost, price, delivery, oh, and price. 

 

...and somewhere after that the 'nice to have' factors get assessed, including environment, sustainability, legacy and local content. 

[cunningduck]

The Trident replacement project is exactly the same. They'll have a "Made in Britain" sticker on them, but most of the technology and materials will come from abroad.

I'd argue (strongly) that if you know enough to make such an accusation, you should know not to make such an accusation.

 

Besides, judging by the article, I think CAF are more interested in a servicing and logistics (stores warehouse) facility than assembly.

Edited July 16, 2016 by cunningduck

[Foulounoux]

Oo oh good news we supply them via a distributor who is just over the road from them in Spain

I was moaning to them this week that on previous trips they didn't take me to their customer

 

Colin

[Wheatley]

Bon Accord, on 16 Jul 2016 - 14:28, said:

The Trident replacement project is exactly the same. They'll have a "Made in Britain" sticker on them, but most of the technology and materials will come from abroad.

 

The missiles themselves are slightly more than 1% of the total programme cost, a lot of which will be spent by AWE as the UK builds and owns the warheads, the US only builds the delivery vehicle. The rest of the 20 billion quid will go on new submarines (to be built in Barrow ?) and new infrastructure to support them. If you want to build (or refurbish) a submarine base in the UK, you have to build/refurbish it in the UK.

 

Given that an entirely UK-based design and build option for new trains is not going to happen for these particular contracts, would you rather have them built entirely in Spain or built in Spain and assembled in the UK ? Or is your glass always half empty ?

Edited July 16, 2016 by Wheatley

[jjb1970]

I'm not sure how much of the high value stuff (traction package, control systems) is made by CAF anyway. Modern train builders are like manufacturers in many other fields in being more packager and integrator rather than the old fashioned idea of manufacturing where they made most of their product.

[royaloak]

It does matter when you're using the 'British built' angle to apply political pressure to buy your products, when they have very little British content, ahead of stuff assembled abroad that have a higher British manufactured content. 

<mess room joke> What like the IEP/AT300s which are British built because there is a plant up Newton Aycliffe way which bolts the handrails on! <mess room joke>

[Bon Accord]

The missiles themselves are slightly more than 1% of the total programme cost, a lot of which will be spent by AWE as the UK builds and owns the warheads, the US only builds the delivery vehicle. The rest of the 20 billion quid will go on new submarines (to be built in Barrow ?) and new infrastructure to support them. If you want to build (or refurbish) a submarine base in the UK, you have to build/refurbish it in the UK.

 

Given that an entirely UK-based design and build option for new trains is not going to happen for these particular contracts, would you rather have them built entirely in Spain or built in Spain and assembled in the UK ? Or is your glass always half empty ?

 

My glass has a special coating which makes it fully resistant to all forms of jingoistic nonsense, whether it be generated at source or by individuals getting excited over what amounts to a sticker.

The Trident II moneypits boats will be assembled at Barrow, as there is nowhere else that is politically acceptable.

Considering the cheaper costs of manufacturing in Spain, I'd be very surprised if CAF aren't themselves making a token gesture which will in time be politically acceptable.

[Bon Accord]

I'd argue (strongly) that if you know enough to make such an accusation, you should know not to make such an accusation.

 

Besides, judging by the article, I think CAF are more interested in a servicing and logistics (stores warehouse) facility than assembly.

 

Are you concerned that ISIS ne'er do wells may be monitoring RMweb and could then take a cue from a post and so work out what they could otherwise overhear in any pub in Plymouth/Portsmouth/Helensburgh/Fort Lauderdale/San Diego/Norfolk, read about in any defence blog or forum or indeed find out from Google?

Edited July 16, 2016 by Bon Accord

[eastwestdivide]

To quote the original article "The company says it intends to establish facilities ‘to carry out rolling stock assembly and testing, as well as maintenance’."

and "While the assembly plant is initially intended to deliver existing contracts, CAF says it is looking to win further orders to sustain the business in the longer term."

 

Note that they've called it assembly rather than construction or manufacturing, and there are few other details given, so it's hard to tell exactly what will take place there.

It could be as little as interior fit-out, having brought in empty bodyshells/underframe/bogies from Spain/elsewhere.

[Reorte]

 

The Trident II moneypits boats will be assembled at Barrow, as there is nowhere else that is politically acceptable.

How they'll get built at Barrow is probably closer to scratch-building a model than assembling a kit, let alone just adding some detailing parts to RTR. Sure, you might buy some castings and a motor but the brass still starts off as a plain sheet of metal. It's not a giant Airfix kit rolling in, submarine rolling out.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Reorte

[Bon Accord]

How they'll get built at Barrow is probably closer to scratch-building a model than assembling a kit, let alone just adding some detailing parts to RTR. Sure, you might buy some castings and a motor but the brass still starts off as a plain sheet of metal. It's not a giant Airfix kit rolling in, submarine rolling out.

 

I'm well aware of how modern ships are put together, having been the "owners rep" for a few in my time.

The last two large merchant vessels built in the UK were for the MOD. Initially it was planned they be built in Germany with their sisters, however after much howling and screaming from the press, local MPs and the unions the order was switched to a certain famous UK shipyard. Being built for military work, it was seen to be important that they had a "Made in Britain" sticker on the side - for no real practical reason other than PR.

The simple metal bashing part was done (badly) in the UK using imported steel, from Poland if memory serves. The internals, e.g. all the machinery, electronics, hydraulics and even the furniture all came from abroad - mostly from Germany. The build cost in the UK was some 25% more than the equivalent in Europe, with a scheduled delivery time which was twice as long and was even then late. The guarantee/snag list was so long that eventually patience was lost and the vessel removed to a repair yard abroad, where it then spent 6 weeks alongside with work ongoing 24/7 to enable the vessel to be fit to go to sea.

Still, this needlessly expensive charade - with taxpayers money, remember - ticked a political box and allowed the MOD to boast they were "British built", thereby allowing them to dodge some awkward questions from the press.

In contrast, a few years ago I was in Taranto Naval Base and was taken on a tour of CAVOUR (their new aircraft carrier) where one of the things that really stood out for me was just how much of that ship and her equipment is genuinely Italian - her officers were very proud of that.

If CAF are serious about doing something of substance in the UK then all power to them, but the hard bitten cynic in me can't help but wonder otherwise.

[jjb1970]

The decline of shipbuilding in Europe is not limited to the UK, it is a European issue. None of the European yards can get anywhere near the Korean's on price, build time and quality and the Korean's themselves are under serious pressure with their yards in a parlous financial state. When I went to sea the top cat of shipbuilding was Japan and despite a few people that still talk about "jap crap" in my opinion Japanese built ships remain the gold standard in quality terms however they're well behind the Korean's in production efficiency. Europe has some shipbuilders that compete well in niche markets (such as Damen for offshore vessels, tugs, dredgers etc and Finncantieri for cruise ships) but even those yards trail the Asian builders in many respects. China is biting the Korean's although the Chinese have had a pretty rough time in recent years. Something that many European's (and indeed American's) refuse to accept is the skills shift to Asia in maritime industries, most of the skills are in Asia but many still seem to imagine Asia is a collection of low end sweat shops knocking out cheap rubbish designed somewhere else.

[jjb1970]

To quote the original article "The company says it intends to establish facilities ‘to carry out rolling stock assembly and testing, as well as maintenance’."

and "While the assembly plant is initially intended to deliver existing contracts, CAF says it is looking to win further orders to sustain the business in the longer term."

 

Note that they've called it assembly rather than construction or manufacturing, and there are few other details given, so it's hard to tell exactly what will take place there.

It could be as little as interior fit-out, having brought in empty bodyshells/underframe/bogies from Spain/elsewhere.

 

That sums up modern manufacture and if CAF build a plant doing that then it'll be pretty much what other modern train factories do. The final assembly brings together components and sub-assemblies, many of which are bought in from outside suppliers.

[Huw Griffiths]

They'll have a "Made in Britain" sticker on them, but most of the technology and materials will come from abroad.

 

Isn't it nice to know that we still make stickers in the UK?

 

Joking aside, these days, what's really meant by "made in" any country seems to be rather nebulous - and presumably based on percentage of the price. I seem to recall about stuff like marketing being able to be counted - possibly also stuff like maintenance deals, wholesale and retail markups and VAT. How much truth there was in these suggestions, I don't know (and probably never will know for sure).

 

If there is any truth in suggestions like these, you could almost imagine kitchens from a well known Swedish themed flatpack emporium being given Union Jack stickers - after all, the installation is carried out in the UK by UK based workers. Strip away the installation - and they're marketed by a Swedish company ("European") - but it wouldn't surprise me if the manufacturing of units, accessories and other stuff actually took place on another continent.

 

Please note, I'm not singling specific companies out for criticism - and I'm not accusing specific companies of dishonesty or other unethical behaviour. I'm merely commenting on how difficult it is these days to identify where stuff actually comes from.

 

 

Anyway, turning to CAF, it sounds like they're looking to establish a meaningful base in the UK. It also sounds like they might be expected to maintain what they sell - which is likely to be easier to do if they've got people working in the UK who are familiar with how their trains are put together.

 

Regardless of any political angle, I'd much prefer trains they are building and selling for the UK market to have at least some local content.

[jjb1970]

I think it is just another sign of the global world we now live in. Most larger companies are international in nature and there are indeed questions over just what does "made in xxxxx" mean, it also asks questions of what is a manufacturer? If we look at model trains, the actual manufacturers in most cases are companies in China who are hidden to the consumer and the companies promoted as manufacturers are effectively designers who then outsource all production (as far as I know Bachmann/Kader are the only genuine OO manufacturer). There is nothing wrong with any of that but it does cause unintended issues when people try to wrap stuff in a national flag.

[eastwestdivide]

That sums up modern manufacture and if CAF build a plant doing that then it'll be pretty much what other modern train factories do. The final assembly brings together components and sub-assemblies, many of which are bought in from outside suppliers.

 

Yes, understood, and a point well made.

It's still unclear what the extent and scope of the "assembly" work to be done in this new plant will be. There's no corresponding press release on the CAF website - it appears to have been a Railway Gazette exclusive interview. Oh, well wait and see/watch this space.

[DavidB-AU]

Train manufacture/assembly is just catching up to how aircraft have been built for decades. Even Boeing has components made in Australia and shipped to Seattle for final assembly.

 

Cheers

David

[Zomboid]

Train manufacture/assembly is just catching up to how aircraft have been built for decades. Even Boeing has components made in Australia and shipped to Seattle for final assembly.

 

Cheers

David

Airbus planes were always built in a similar manner, though I think the reasons historically were political. The wings were made near Chester I think, and shipped to somewhere in France to be attached to the fuselage. Not sure if that's still the case.

If a company is opening a factory/ assembly line and creating jobs, then surely that's good for the local economy. I personally don't give a hoot whose flag it flies, if the factory is in Liverpool (as an example), then I doubt the impact will be felt much further south than Crewe, so as far as I'm concerned it may as well be in Cordoba. But good for wherever it ends up.