Chassis and transfers for PVA / PVB Curtain Sided Wagons

[Jaggzuk]

Hi Guys

 

As this is my first post in the Kitbuilding & Scratchbuilding section I thought I had better introduce myself. My name is Paul and I have just started building my 2010 layout North Marsh Road.

 

I have been collection RTR stock for the layout for a while now but not all can be sourced as RTR. Some types are going to have to be scratch or kit built; as a result I have a question regarding wagon chassis and transfers.

 

Although my layout is fictitious it is based on the area around Kings Lynn and I would like to try to represent some of the rolling stock seen in that area between 1970 and the early 1990s. One of these is the private owner wagon that was used by Campbell Soups. These were of the PVA and PVB curtain sided van type; an example can be seen here Campbell Soups PVB wagon

 

As far as I know there is no current RTR version of the PVA wagon but I have noted you can still get spare Hornby R 234 Curtain Sided Van Bodies bodies on e-bay and so I am thinking that this may be the answer. However, I have only ever built complete wagon kits before and not scratch built. If I was to get some of these blank bodies does any one know where or how I can make the PVA/PVB chassis to suit them?

 

Also, as a separate question how would I go about getting the words Campbell Soup Limited for the van sides? Are there suitable transfers out there? How do you make your own etc.

 

Any help on this would be very much appreciated.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[Pugsley]

That's an interesting one, as the chassis if of a completely different design to the type modelled by Hornby, so it's not as if you can use that. Your best bet may be to make your own chassis using styrene sheet and U section.

 

You may need to splice in an extra section of bodyshell to get the right depth to the sides - to help you these wagons had a loading aperture of 1920mm. A rough and ready calculation from one of the photographs on the site you linked to leads me to believe that from the top of the floor to the bottom of the bufferbeam is 276.5mm. The chassis finishes approximately 90mm above the bottom of the bufferbeam, so you're looking at an overall chassis depth of 186.5mm from the top of the floor level, to the bottom of the chassis.

 

I expect you'll need to file away some of the top of the U to allow the body sides to drop down about half way. Cambrian do the BSC Friction Pedestal suspension units.

 

In terms of transfers, you could either try Precision Labels or Scale Model Transfers, both of which do custom work.

 

Hope that's given you something to go on.

[Scottish Modeller]

That's an interesting one, as the chassis if of a completely different design to the type modelled by Hornby, so it's not as if you can use that. Your best bet may be to make your own chassis using styrene sheet and U section.

 

You may need to splice in an extra section of bodyshell to get the right depth to the sides - to help you these wagons had a loading aperture of 1920mm. A rough and ready calculation from one of the photographs on the site you linked to leads me to believe that from the top of the floor to the bottom of the bufferbeam is 276.5mm. The chassis finishes approximately 90mm above the bottom of the bufferbeam, so you're looking at an overall chassis depth of 186.5mm from the top of the floor level, to the bottom of the chassis.

 

I expect you'll need to file away some of the top of the U to allow the body sides to drop down about half way. Cambrian do the BSC Friction Pedestal suspension units.

 

In terms of transfers, you could either try Precision Labels or Scale Model Transfers, both of which do custom work.

 

Hope that's given you something to go on.

 

 

Hi both,

 

Drawings for these vehicles are available as part of the Barrowmore Model Railway Group prototype info - wagon diagrams.

 

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book300Part1Issue.pdf

 

Should take you to the relevant book.

 

The nearest wheelbase is the Hornby VIX - guess who looked at doing this in the past!

 

This needs a chassis chop to match the Campbells ones, then all the detail removed and replaced from the chassis.

 

I have seen this done with 2 Hornby curtain siders carved to make one wagon. It's not exact - but near....

 

Thanks

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

Just noticed on eBay....

 

Ending soon though!

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hornby-R-234-CURTAIN-SIDED-VAN-BODY-ONLY-WHITE-NEW_W0QQitemZ360241432402QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trains_Railway_Models?hash=item53e0100752

 

Cheap as well.....

[Jaggzuk]

Thanks for the help guys.

 

Pugsley, thanks for the dimensional advice. I have never scratch built anything before but you have inspired me in how one can 'read' and 'measure' from photographs to help create the desired model. On the axle front I did find these ones on 51L, BSC Frictional Pedestal suspension system, do you think these are the right ones?

 

Scottish Modeller, the link to the BRB Diagrams books is fantastic, they look really useful. I did not realise there were so many variations of the same wagon. Thanks for the ebay tip off too, I had been watching these and I am really please as one was for 8 body shells which I managed to get for under a tenner!

 

So, I think project Campbell Soups is under way. I might need some advice when it gets under way, especially on the chassis construction and how to develop the artwork for the transfers front.

 

Regards Paul

[Jaggzuk]

Project Campbell Soups

 

Following a recent success on a well know action site, I now the proud owner of 8 curtain sided wagon body shells. These are actually Hornby spares, R234.

 

 

 

General views of the blank wagon body Shell

 

 

The injection molded wagon shell is a substantial bit of plastic with no flexibility to the sides thus no risk of warping and there is a central screw fixing spigot for an under frame. The representation of the curtain side is very good with a very realistic ripple and well defined tensioning straps at the bottom.

 

Close up view of the rippled side curtain and tension straps.

 

Dimensionally the wagon body is of the correct width and height, but are much shorter than the prototype when compared to the dimensions quoted for Diagram PV009A in then BRB Vehicle Diagram Book No. 300 Part 1. This diagram quoted an over headstock length of 12790mm (scale 167.8mm) but the shells measure 138.8mm including the end ribs and 134.5mm over the bufferbeams. The actual width including the roof overhang measured 33.43mm with a proto scale width being 33.3mm and the height from buffer centre to top of roof was 35.3mm verses the proto of 34.2mm.

 

I was originally only planning to make 2 or 3 of these wagons for my first scratch building project. However, as 8 shells were on offer I decided that with the extra ones I could build more variations of the wagon; such as the blue sided Procor or the yellow sided Railiner. In all cases the external end stiffening ribs will need to be modified if I want to match the prototypes.

 

The photo below is a mocked up what one might look like finished.

 

I am planning on buying two types of bogey frames to trial out which is the best one , one from Wizard Models/51L (White metal White metal from here Wizard Models) and the other from Cambrian Models (Plastic from here cambrian Models).

 

I guess the next stage is to research and design of the underframe details, so I would welcome any feedback and advice on this stage and in particular how to scratch build the underframes for the wagon.

[Fat Controller]

Project Campbell Soups

 

Following a recent success on a well know action site, I now the proud owner of 8 curtain sided wagon body shells. These are actually Hornby spares, R234.

 

 

 

General views of the blank wagon body Shell

 

 

The injection molded wagon shell is a substantial bit of plastic with no flexibility to the sides thus no risk of warping and there is a central screw fixing spigot for an under frame. The representation of the curtain side is very good with a very realistic ripple and well defined tensioning straps at the bottom.

 

Close up view of the rippled side curtain and tension straps.

 

Dimensionally the wagon body is of the correct width and height, but are much shorter than the prototype when compared to the dimensions quoted for Diagram PV009A in then BRB Vehicle Diagram Book No. 300 Part 1. This diagram quoted an over headstock length of 12790mm (scale 167.8mm) but the shells measure 138.8mm including the end ribs and 134.5mm over the bufferbeams. The actual width including the roof overhang measured 33.43mm with a proto scale width being 33.3mm and the height from buffer centre to top of roof was 35.3mm verses the proto of 34.2mm.

 

I was originally only planning to make 2 or 3 of these wagons for my first scratch building project. However, as 8 shells were on offer I decided that with the extra ones I could build more variations of the wagon; such as the blue sided Procor or the yellow sided Railiner. In all cases the external end stiffening ribs will need to be modified if I want to match the prototypes.

 

The photo below is a mocked up what one might look like finished.

 

I am planning on buying two types of bogey frames to trial out which is the best one , one from Wizard Models/51L (White metal White metal from here Wizard Models) and the other from Cambrian Models (Plastic from here cambrian Models).

 

I guess the next stage is to research and design of the underframe details, so I would welcome any feedback and advice on this stage and in particular how to scratch build the underframes for the wagon.

Just make sure you get rid of that 'orrible extractor fan on the roof....

[Jaggzuk]

Just make sure you get rid of that 'orrible extractor fan on the roof....

 

Files and scalpel at the ready.

 

I am quite excited really about this project, ok they may not be perfect in terms of being totally prototypical, but I am looking forward to cutting bits off, shaping new bits of plasticard and attaching bits to make them look more like the real thing.

 

Still not sure about the whole transfer thing yet for the logos etc... oh well more to learn I guess.

[BernardTPM]

Project Campbell Soups

Dimensionally the wagon body is of the correct width and height, but are much shorter than the prototype when compared to the dimensions quoted for Diagram PV009A in then BRB Vehicle Diagram Book No. 300 Part 1. This diagram quoted an over headstock length of 12790mm (scale 167.8mm) but the shells measure 138.8mm including the end ribs and 134.5mm over the bufferbeams. The actual width including the roof overhang measured 33.43mm with a proto scale width being 33.3mm and the height from buffer centre to top of roof was 35.3mm verses the proto of 34.2mm.

 

You have the wrong diagram; the Cambell's Soups wagons are diagram PV006B, 10592mm o.h. = 139mm. The first curtain sided version Hornby did was in Campbell's Soups livery (I might have one knocking around somewhere) so it is about right for length. Later they did it in the blue Procor colours (those are the PV009A design) for which it was too short and then Railiner for which it is too long!

That spurious vent moulding has appeared on a number of wagons; I believe it has something to do with the way the items are moulded and automatically ejected from the moulding machine.

[Supaned]

I'm sure I remember seeing an article in one of the modelling monthlies (possibly Railway Modeller) not so long ago , where somebody had done a cut-and-shut to produce a more accurate Procor vehicle.

 

Sorry to be so vague regarding dates , but I'm certain one of the learned members on here will be able to assist...

[Jaggzuk]

Thanks BernardTPM for pointing out my incorrect assumption that is not Diagram PV009A. Looking back at the BRB diagram book I can see that my assumption was based on the fact that the PV009A diagram showed the curtain side and tension clips which the PV006B omits.

 

I has also made this error before I had seen the article in Railway Modeler that Supaned mentioned in his post. A colleague as work (2mm Andy) recently passed me a copy of February 2008 magazine which has the said article in it. So with 8 body shells I can at least have a go at the Blue PROCOR version too.

 

Thanks for the comments guys, much appreciated,

 

Paul

[DavidBelcher]

For the transfers, might be worth contacting our own John Isherwood of Cambridge Custom Transfers (posts on RMWeb under the cctransuk ID), although I think the Campbell's livery might be a bit too modern as a lot of CCT stuff covers the 50s and 60s (John - feel free to correct me on that one!).

 

David

[musky]

Procor PVA cut and shut see Railway modeller Feb 2008

 

Good luck

Musky

[hmrspaul]

A considerable bump, but I have posted a few photos of the prototype Railiner at http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/trlrailiner they may be of interest. Did you finish any of the vans?

 

Paul Bartlett

[Guest]

Just completed my art work and printed of my decals on my alps printer the models still gloss and needs the rest of it decals adding plus weathering

 

cheers

Roomey

 

 

[Southernman46]

Bachmann POA / SSA scrap wagon chassis for the pedestal version ?

 

was thinking about doing the same but haven't applied too much brain power to it yet

[Guest]

Bachmann POA / SSA scrap wagon chassis for the pedestal version ?

 

was thinking about doing the same but haven't applied too much brain power to it yet

 

the pedestals were white metal ones

cheers

Roomey

[Fat Controller]

Bachmann POA / SSA scrap wagon chassis for the pedestal version ?

 

was thinking about doing the same but haven't applied too much brain power to it yet

Cambrian do a sprue with various types of pedestal suspensions, as well as Brunighaus ones; I used these, in conjunction with MJT W-Irons, when I did one of the soup wagons.

[simon br blue]

Just completed my art work and printed of my decals on my alps printer the models still gloss and needs the rest of it decals adding plus weathering

 

cheers

Roomey

 

 

 

That looks great, Did you use drawings for the underframe, I've still got to scratch build mine and I can't find any info about the chassis and brake details?

[Guest]

Hi

If you check out Paul bartletts website and hue millington site there enough detail in the pictures to workout the brake detail and air and compressor

I used the same drawing that are in the txt earlier in the tread

Millingtons photos are best for under frame work and both have good referances for the livery

Cheers

Roomey

[Guest]

well here's two for myself and one for a freind

[Jaggzuk]

well here's two for myself and one for a freind

 

Great wagons there Rommey, quite envious really as mine are still white plastic shells in the box they were delivered in! Mind you big scale house reservations and a 2 year old, has diverted all my time.

 

I noted in one of your previous comments, you talked about your artwork for the wagons and your Alps printer. Can I ask where you got the Campbell Soups logo/name from? I assume the use of the Alps printer about the ability to print white? What type of Decals where they?

 

Paul

[Guest]

 

 

Great wagons there Rommey, quite envious really as mine are still white plastic shells in the box they were delivered in! Mind you big scale house reservations and a 2 year old, has diverted all my time.

 

I noted in one of your previous comments, you talked about your artwork for the wagons and your Alps printer. Can I ask where you got the Campbell Soups logo/name from? I assume the use of the Alps printer about the ability to print white? What type of Decals where they?

 

Paul

 

I manged to use a side on photo and photoshop it out, then print it white on a alps printer as water slide decal

Cheers

Roomey

[simon br blue]

Another bump for this topic.  I managed to guess/workout the underframe and just need to get some transfers made for the 4 and 7mm models.  The 4mm version uses the sides and roof of the Hornby shell.  Pictures below but the real reason for bumping the topic was to ask if anyone has scale drawings (or basic BR weight diagram) for the Railiner wagon mentioned by Paul earlier in the thread?

 

 

[dvdlcs]

Would the Railiner wagon be PV008A (Book 300 Part 1 page 166) ?

 

Only clue given is the reference to a 19' wheelbase on Paul Bartletts page (plus PV006B and PV009A referred to for the other types).

 

Any help?

 

Edit - OK: so actually looking at the pictures confirms that it is diagram PV008A as referred to above, although the roof profile is quite different. Described as converted from the frame of TRL 51915, so whatever diagram that was would presumably be a starting point for the frames.

 

Edit - TRL 51915 was originally TT054A (BR PO Wagons 3 page 151) or (PO Wagons 2009 page 223) although neither gives much away, other than overall dimensions.