retbsignalman Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Hi! A quick question about Southern Railway upper quadrant ringed signals. What colour would the ring have been painted in the 70s please? I have seen one in preservation on the K&ESR and the ring is black, but pics I've seen on line aren't too clear but look white! Ta in advance! G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 White Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Hi, Well, Scalelink instructions say Black but that would have been in Southern days not 1970s. K&ESR obviously painted it in its original colour. Another case of not taking modern practice as being the same as the original and vise versa. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 5, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2016 Different sources give different answers with the only consistent thing being the 'dot' on the signal arm inside the ring being white. In some 1960s monochrome photos the ring itself is definitely considerably darker than both the red of the arm and the white of the dot but one looks to be more likely corrosion rather than paint colour. Kichenside & Williams say white but the caption is rather ambiguous as it also refers to (G)WR signals where the ring was definitely white at the front. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Found a photo in Pryer's book, Plate 88, no date but ring faded black?, shows the white dot of course. Now I have found on SEMGonline a photo of a calling arm, the C being painted black dated 1986. I would think therefore the O would be black also. Possibly the uncertainty has been introduced because the OP has seen the photo of a white O ex SR at Barnstaple Junction on SEMGonline. This is probably because the line was taken over by WR and they no doubt promptly introduced Western practice and repainted it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 I thought they were black under SR practice, and white under BR(S), but I can't cite conclusive proof/evidence. K Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
retbsignalman Posted August 6, 2016 Author Share Posted August 6, 2016 Thank you all! I'll go with white for later BR practice. Got the dot done with the blunt end of a 3mm drill bit lightly dipped in paint and deftly dabbed on the arm! G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 I remember this signal, which lasted at least until the 1970s, possibly the Early 1980s, although I have to say that the photos don't help much with the colour of the ring, and the whole thing looked as if it was last painted when God's dog was a puppy anyway! http://www.signalbox.org/signals/lbsc.htm K Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 There were certainly black rings on lower-quadrant goods arms on the S&DJR in BR days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Hi, The photo in Pryers book, plate 88 also shows the third rail in place. Now Christchurch only became electrified in 1967, so certainly up to that time, the O was faded black (or could it even have been red?). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Just stumbled upon a wonderful archive of signal pictures, with many LBSCR/SR ringed arms present http://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/archive/photos/jjs/g-negs.htm Some of the captions are a tiny bit suspect, I think, in that they call ringed-arm running signals "shunt signals", but not a major issue. Look for the one of Lewes down outer home as a beautiful example, showing a dark (black or red?) ring for the route to the goods avoiding line. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Just stumbled upon a wonderful archive of signal pictures, with many LBSCR/SR ringed arms present http://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/archive/photos/jjs/g-negs.htm Some of the captions are a tiny bit suspect, I think, in that they call ringed-arm running signals "shunt signals", but not a major issue. Look for the one of Lewes down outer home as a beautiful example, showing a dark (black or red?) ring for the route to the goods avoiding line. Kevin ..and IMHO GN-049 is back-to-front ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted August 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 22, 2016 I learned them as white rings on a red arm facing the driver with black ring on a white arm behind. Except in places where they're not As with all things signalling there seem to be many exceptions to the rule. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2016 Just stumbled upon a wonderful archive of signal pictures, with many LBSCR/SR ringed arms present http://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/archive/photos/jjs/g-negs.htm Some of the captions are a tiny bit suspect, I think, in that they call ringed-arm running signals "shunt signals", but not a major issue. Look for the one of Lewes down outer home as a beautiful example, showing a dark (black or red?) ring for the route to the goods avoiding line. Kevin Small arms with rings on were used as subsidiary signals on the LBSCR/Central Section. BTW I think GN-045 is probably GWR as I don't think anyone else had any 3 position semaphore distants on an electrified line Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted August 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2016 ..and IMHO GN-049 is back-to-front ! so are http://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/archive/photos/jjs/b99/041.htm http://www.bluebell-railway-museum.co.uk/archive/photos/jjs/b99/042.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Stationmaster I can't really make out GN-045 properly, but I wondered if it might be on the District Railway section that was signalled with electro-pneumatic semaphores in accordance with US practice, c1903, and which introduced the train-stop to London. IIRC the section was Acton Town to Ealing Broadway and Harrow (although I think some of the station names were different then). But, I'm no signalling expert ......... I come across this stuff when reading-up on railway electrification! Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2016 Stationmaster I can't really make out GN-045 properly, but I wondered if it might be on the District Railway section that was signalled with electro-pneumatic semaphores in accordance with US practice, c1903, and which introduced the train-stop to London. IIRC the section was Acton Town to Ealing Broadway and Harrow (although I think some of the station names were different then). But, I'm no signalling expert ......... I come across this stuff when reading-up on railway electrification! Kevin Did the District have separate Distant automatic signals or were they all lower distants? Incidentally sorry - I erroneously identified it as a distant although it is actually an automatic signal. The Ealing & Shepherds Bush (owned, signalled and operated by the GWR but used by CLR electric trains) had three position automatic signals. The E&SBR was also only third rail (centrally) electrified with traction current being returned through the running rails - was the District using 4th rail as well back then? Incidentally while doing a bit of delving I discovered there is a Westinghouse publicity film of the new signalling on the E&SBR but it only exists on 35mm stock Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 We are now well OT. Did the District use three position, or two separate arms on the same post? That's what I'm not sure about, and I can't quickly confirm. I've found one picture showing a slightly later District (possibly on the section shared with the LSWR) automatic signal near Hammersmith, which has two arms, the 'home' having an horizontal, rather than vertical, white stripe, which I think designated it as automatic, plus a distant, but the 'Ealing & South Harrow' was a first, and might have been different. And, yes, E&SH was four-rail electrification - see photo below. I struggled to count rails in GN-045; if you are sure it has only a centre CR, the the GWR it must be. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2016 We are now well OT. Did the District use three position, or two separate arms on the same post? That's what I'm not sure about, and I can't quickly confirm. I've found one picture showing a slightly later District (possibly on the section shared with the LSWR) automatic signal near Hammersmith, which has two arms, the 'home' having an horizontal, rather than vertical, white stripe, which I think designated it as automatic, plus a distant, but the 'Ealing & South Harrow' was a first, and might have been different. And, yes, E&SH was four-rail electrification - see photo below. I struggled to count rails in GN-045; if you are sure it has only a centre CR, the the GWR it must be. Kevin I looked pretty hard for a fourth rail and couldn't make one out. After a bit of further delving - although alas I can't find my E&SBR signalling plan to confirm the signal at that location - I'm reasonably sure that the picture was taken from East Acton station, or thereabouts, looking towards White City and the bridge is the one over Du Cane Road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 I know of only one electric railway in the UK that used a centre thrid rail, namely the Central London Railway, which places that picture of a 3-position semaphore squarely on the Shepherds Bush - Ealing Broadway line. Strictly speaking, the signal isn't a distant either, at least not in the normal context of the term. These signals, which appeared in one or two other places as well, functioned as 3-aspect signals, each one acting as either a stop signal or the "distant" for the next signal. The District Railway electrification, along with the concurrent electrification of the Metropolitan Railway, was always four rail, as was the Mersey Railway until it was converted to third rail in 1956. Of the other pioneering electrifications in the early 1900s, ie Liverpool-Southport, Manchester-Bury the NER's Tyneside system, all were third rail, except the LNWR electrification to Watford, which had to follow the 4-rail as its electrification was undertaken jointly with the LER, and the Great Northern & City Railway (Finsbury Park - Moorgate) which had outside third and fourth rails, positive on one side and negative on the other.. The LSWR's electrification that spawned the vast Southern Region system was the last of the conductor rail systems, dating from 1915. There are two other systems that used a conductor rail in the four-foot, but offset from the centreline, namely the City & South London system, which had a cunning 1100 Volt electrification, with the running rails arranged to be at the mid-point, so one line's conductor rail was positive, whilst the other line was negative, and Volk's Electric Railway, which is the grandfather of them all. Now, only the London Underground remains as the surviving 4-rail electrification, although where it shares tracks with main-line trains, it is really a third rail system with a central return rail that is cross-bonded to one of the running rails. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Try this one then gentlemen. Centre third rail electrification, and electro-magnetic, as opposed to EP, automatic semaphore signalling. In Great Britain. K (We might need to start a separate early electrification and auto-signalling thread!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2016 Try this one then gentlemen. Centre third rail electrification, and electro-magnetic, as opposed to EP, automatic semaphore signalling. In Great Britain. K (We might need to start a separate early electrification and auto-signalling thread!) My money's on the dockers' umbrella in Liverpool - which was originally centre third rail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 One to you, then. Funnily enough, my first thought was that the LOR had a centre rail, but a search of the pictures only showed the later outside 3rd rail, which I already appreciated allowed for inter-running with the L&Y on the Liverpool - Southport line. I obviously didn't delve deeply enough, as a further search came up with - Which rather proves the point, as well as the arrangements for maintaining contact through the breaks at pointwork. The CLR had the same arrangement of overlapping conductor rails at points, and a collector shoe the size of the proverbial dinner plate, presumably cribbing the arrangement from the LOR. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Indeed, it is the LOR. All very Bassett-Lowke, isn't it. Final shot: wasn't the Waterloo & City originally centre third rail too? Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 So it was, although I have never come across any pictures of it in that state. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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