The shrinking Royal Navy

[Torper]

No need for doubt. In the event of independence the UK government would have swallowed the cost bullet and moved production out of Scotland.

 

That is of course only your opinion.  As a matter of interest, where would they have taken Trident?  There is, I think, nowhere in England that can realistically accommodate it.

 

DT

[Fat Controller]

That is of course only your opinion.  As a matter of interest, where would they have taken Trident?  There is, I think, nowhere in England that can realistically accommodate it.

 

DT

Three  possible options would be in, or near, the Celtic fringe:-

Devonport

Falmouth

Milford Haven

There's also Portland

[Arthur]

That is of course only your opinion.  As a matter of interest, where would they have taken Trident?  There is, I think, nowhere in England that can realistically accommodate it.

 

DT

Independence would have created a degree of resentment in the UK. Come the decision on building warships, that resentment would have been whipped up by certain politicians, unions seeking UK jobs, local vested interests and many newspapers creating a storm no London government could have resisted.

 

Headlines of 'Caving in to Sturgeon, UK warships built in a foreign country' would have stoked the flames.

 

Not opinion, political reality.

 

As we are seeing with Brexit there are costs. Do not delude yourself that independence would have been cost free and on Holyroods terms.

 

 

As for Trident, I thought independent Scotland was throwing out nuclear anyway.

 

.

[TomE]

If what you say is correct, it would cast into considerable doubt the MOD's insistence prior to the independence referendum that an independent Scotland would lose the frigate order even although that contract had been awarded to a company, not a country.

 

Even if that order was cancelled, in the event of independence it was planned that an order for two new frigates for the Scottish navy would be placed during the first parliamentary term of independence with a further two to follow when the pair of type 23s that Scotland would inherit from the UK as part of her share of defence assets were retired from service.

 

As for the promised type 31s, Michael Fallon is reported (by the BBC) to have said late last year that "he was unable to promise the work would come to the Clyde yards".

 

DT

 

This is really all ifs, buts & maybes anyway, since Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. Thankfully we'll never know what might have happened. 

 

The fact is the Clyde is benefiting from this order for 3 hulls now, and unless there is a catastrophic change in direction or circumstance, will also benefit from the follow on order for the next 5. That will keep hundreds of ship building jobs in Scotland for a long time to come. There are also potential export deals, with Canada and Australia currently considering Type 26. Yes, it would have been great to get 13 hulls, but if cutting that to 8 allows an increase in the overall number of frigates then that has to be a good thing for the RN at least. 

 

I also don't recall there ever being a cast iron promise that the 'Type 31' work would go to Scotland, and in fact we don't even know yet whether it will be a 'lite' version of the Type 26 or a whole new design, of which there are several on the table: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/steller-systems-offers-another-option-for-the-type-31-frigate-design/

 

Tom.  

[Legend]

Scunthorpe, I believe Brian, supplies at least some of the slab for the plate mill at Dalzell.

.

Yes it is Dalzell , can't remember what it's called now, it was Tata until they sold it off

[Arthur]

 

It's Liberty Steel. The finishing plants at Dalzell and Clydebridge were sold to them for a nominal fee and the Scottish Govt. gave grants so that they could re-open. Dalzell is certainly back in production rolling plate and Clydebridge is a heat treatment facility.

 

These plants were previously owned by Colvilles, then the BSC, Corus and Tata. Colvilles had acquired the dormant Clydebridge plant from the Clydebridge Steel Co.

 

.

[Torper]

Three  possible options would be in, or near, the Celtic fringe:-

Devonport

Falmouth

Milford Haven

There's also Portland

 

For one reason or other all were dismissed as unsuitable.  Faslane and Coulport, on the other hand, are apparently ideal.

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/why-relocating-trident-away-from-scotland-is-virtually-impossible/

 

DT

[jjb1970]

Necessity is the mother of invention. As with most things, if push came to shove an alternative base would be found and made to work.

[duncan]

The Thames, opposite parliament, so the MPs could view their investment   

[The Fatadder]

Necessity is the mother of invention. As with most things, if push came to shove an alternative base would be found and made to work.

More likely than not I suspect they would go down the cypress route and just keep Farslane as UK territory within Scotland

[Torper]

More likely than not I suspect they would go down the cypress route and just keep Farslane as UK territory within Scotland

 

I don't think so.  Of course, a deal might be done - now what were we saying about frigates?

 

DT

Edited July 21, 2017 by Torper

[Ohmisterporter]

From Save the Royal Navy is a short article about British personnel gaining experience on USS George HW Bush during a NATO exercise. When NATO fleets exercise like this and there is refuelling at sea between ships of different countries who pays for the fuel and supplies? Is it a case of swings and roundabouts where it all works itself equal in the end or are supplies metered and billed for? This is a genuine question to something I do not know. 

 

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/on-board-uss-george-hw-bush-as-she-helps-the-rn-back-into-the-aircraft-carrier-game/

Edited July 29, 2017 by Ohmisterporter

[jamie92208]

That explains what I saw in the Solent and Portsmouth as we came back from France this morning. The George HW Bush was in the Solent, in a place I've seen a Nimitz class carrier before and the Norwegian Frigate F313 plus what looked like a US ship alongside plus 5 of the Darings visible.  I haven't had time to upload my photos but will try later.   As I was admiring the view I got chatting to a guy who has something to do with the Daring's and said that the first three have more problems than the last three and that I should google Mississippi Intakes.   He also commented on the fact that at least 7 of our 19 escort vehicles along with other ships and most of our minesweepers were tin the same place at the same time and thus very vulnerable to a first strike.

 

Jamie

Edited July 30, 2017 by jamie92208

[jamie92208]

I've now had chance to upload my pictures. Not brilliant as the need for breakfast and carrying baggage came first.

Here are the two escorts with the Norwegian F313 nearest the camera. I presume that the other was American. I believe that the berth in the foreground is for the new HMS Queen Elizabeth.

Here is the Minesweeping squadron in it's dock.

And an attempt at an arty one of HMS Westminster with at least three Type 45's visible.

 

Jamie

Edited July 30, 2017 by jamie92208

[peach james]

From Save the Royal Navy is a short article about British personnel gaining experience on USS George HW Bush during a NATO exercise. When NATO fleets exercise like this and there is refuelling at sea between ships of different countries who pays for the fuel and supplies? Is it a case of swings and roundabouts where it all works itself equal in the end or are supplies metered and billed for? This is a genuine question to something I do not know. 

 

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/on-board-uss-george-hw-bush-as-she-helps-the-rn-back-into-the-aircraft-carrier-game/

Ah, RAS.

 

As someone qualified to do it, the answer in the end is that there is some accounting used- hence why PRO ended up with the worst fuel ever from USNS Yukon !.  I'm not sure how the paperwork is handled, but I know we generated a report as to the volume of fuel/water transferred, and food was mostly done by pre-purchase ashore, then transfer.  (except to other RCN units, and even then, we usually did it the same sort of way).  I would assume similar for munitions, but they are rarely needed during "peacetime" sailing, except for again, RCN-RCN transfers, which we did mostly for experience, I think.  

 

Actually, there would have been 2 reports generated- one pre RAS, giving how much of what one wants, and then one post RAS, giving what was shipped over.  I've done enough fueling reports to know the format for taking fuel from civvy fueling docks, but I've never done the pre or post RAS reports, because in the "old" days (say, pre 2016 !), the Hull Tech's looked after the fuel on the tanker apart from the bunker tanks.  (pre 2006 or so, it was the Liquid Cargo officer, who was a naval architect)

 

 

I don't have copies of any paperwork- I was trained to do the job, but never did it.  The only RAS on the deck I actually undertook was in 2002...before the decision to stick me in Controls was made.  There are photos on my Flickr of PRO in 2002- I'll put the link up later when Flickr decides to work

 

(as promised:  https://www.flickr.com/gp/47105471@N05/6CT025 -some photos are Crown Copyright, all are from the 2002 CD)

 

James

Edited July 30, 2017 by peach james

[jjb1970]

Meanwhile, in France:

 

http://www.france24.com/en/20170727-france-saint-nazaire-stx-shipyard-temporary-nationalisation

 

I find it rather amusing that France was happy enough for a Korean company to buy this yard but have a bit of a strop at the prospect of the Italian's buying it.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Meanwhile, in France:

 

http://www.france24.com/en/20170727-france-saint-nazaire-stx-shipyard-temporary-nationalisation

 

I find it rather amusing that France was happy enough for a Korean company to buy this yard but have a bit of a strop at the prospect of the Italian's buying it.

 

Is this a different France from the one that wants closer European defense integration, and was trying to get the rest of the EU27 to join their next generation fighter aircraft project? 

[Legend]

In France there has always been a France first policy. They play the game but ultimately act in their own national interests. So , no doubt Macron is snoozing Merkel at the moment for the next Franco- German fighter , which will, of course, primarily be French!

 

Meanwhile over in the U.K...................we don't have a plan at all!

 

This is also a reason, by the way, that we shouldn't be forging closer relations militarily with France . Ultimately they will go their own way. As inevitably Brexit leads to the parting of the ways and probably even more animosity we should be able to stand on our own two feet

Edited July 30, 2017 by Legend

[pete_mcfarlane]

In France there has always been a France first policy. They play the game but ultimately act in their own national interests. So , no doubt Macron is snoozing Merkel at the moment for the next Franco- German fighter , which will, of course, primarily be French!

 

Meanwhile over in the U.K...................we don't have a plan at all!

 

I suspect the real problem is that the UK does have a plan, and it involves the F-35. 15% UK content in several thousand (mainly) US built jets makes a lot more sense for Britain than 30% UK content in a few hundred joint-European ones. We've also dragged the Italians and a few other EU nations along with us, so the pool of people to pay for the next French fighter is getting smaller.  

[The Fatadder]

Not to mention that corporation with the French didn't work on Tornado or Typhoon, (and silly French requirements that no one else cared about were a major cause of issues with 400m (along with the standard Franco German approach to workshare of ordering massive quantities of aircraft they don't need to maximise workshare)

 

I would say we are much better off with the arrangement on F35, particularly as it has huge export potential (and unlike ADS / Dassult the US companies are actually capable salesman giving further potential still...)

[Ohmisterporter]

When the Anglo-French Jaguar was being touted for sales around the world the French Dassault company was busy trying to sell Mirage in competition. If the British sales team won the French got half the sales and work: if the Mirage won the French got all the sales. Smart tactics, but who would trust them after that?

[The Fatadder]

I suppose at least they won some of their campaigns, I think I'm right I saying the only ADS/EADS led campaign (on Typhoon) which was successful was Austria and look how that turned out.

 

Sadly that is the problem with these multi national programmes, far too much politicking overusing good business sense.

Edited July 31, 2017 by The Fatadder

[rockershovel]

Digressing, but not far, I was wandering around Florida for several weeks in Jan/Feb and discovered that Brexit had achieved the quite singular feat, of attracting the attention of Americans. I was asked on a number of occasions about it, and (possibly in part, as a reflection of certain trends over there) assured that "we are one, we are old allies, we are cousins" or some variation on that theme.

 

I think I can honestly say that I've never been addressed in such terms, anywhere in Europe or by any European..

[Bon Accord]

Digressing, but not far, I was wandering around Florida for several weeks in Jan/Feb and discovered that Brexit had achieved the quite singular feat, of attracting the attention of Americans. I was asked on a number of occasions about it, and (possibly in part, as a reflection of certain trends over there) assured that "we are one, we are old allies, we are cousins" or some variation on that theme.

 

I think I can honestly say that I've never been addressed in such terms, anywhere in Europe or by any European..

 

For many individuals on both sides of the channel the entrenched mindset seems to be that the English in particular have always had a difficult relationship with mainland Europeans and accordingly both sides often look upon each other with a certain amount of suspicion and aloofness. Many of the Europeans I've met have that mentality because in their eyes the English (specifically) believe themselves to be superior to everyone else, all for no real obvious reason. In all fairness to them, certain vocal quarters of this little island do actually believe themselves to be superior and have never considered themselves European in either the emotional or geographic sense. A friend of mind once compared it to certain individuals from Ulster who begin foaming at the mouth if your refer to them or their place of residence as Irish/Ireland/British (delete as appropriate for your faction of choice).

Perhaps a perfect example would be the relationship England has had and still does have with France - certainly globally a lot of people really can't understand the very long standing animosity between the two.

As someone who has travelled widely in all parts of Europe for work and play, I certainly have never encountered anything but friendless and fraternal entente when on the continent. But then again I am a Scot and when asked where I'm from will always confirm that point - the difference in reception is often stark.

I suppose the only place of European influence where I have met a somewhat indifferent reaction (that I can remember) is Quebec, but then they're often a funny lot with pretty much everyone anyway.

[jjb1970]

I suspect the real problem is that the UK does have a plan, and it involves the F-35. 15% UK content in several thousand (mainly) US built jets makes a lot more sense for Britain than 30% UK content in a few hundred joint-European ones. We've also dragged the Italians and a few other EU nations along with us, so the pool of people to pay for the next French fighter is getting smaller.

Indeed, the UK is already starting to take delivery of the F35 which is a generation ahead of the EF Typhoon and Rafale and will probably be well past its mid-life upgrade long before a Euro stealth fighter gets anywhere near delivery. The US is already talking about its own next generation fighter to follow the F22/F15 and I suspect a lot of RAF people would much rather that the UK tries to secure some sort of participation there as per our involvement with the F35. Certainly in terms of through life capability upgrades and continuous development programs US hardware almost invariably fares way better than European stuff. And then there is the whole question of what a next generation fighter is, is it a normal fighter or part of a hybrid manned - UAV system or potentially full on UCAV?