Lima LMS 42ft GUV - roof removal?

[ejstubbs]

I have acquired a Lima LMS 42ft GUV and I want to change the bogies & wheels - the Lima wheels are under-sized and have over-sized flanges.  I can't just swap in a Hornby wheel set because the Lima bogies are a fraction too narrow, so I plan to use a pair of the Bachmann LMS bogies.  The problem is that the bogie mounting points on the GUV are not compatible with the Bachmann bogies, so I will need to get inside the GUV in order to get them fitted using 5mm screws (as I have done with my Hornby LMS clerestory coaches).  Unfortunately I am having trouble getting the roof off the GUV.  I read somewhere that the roof and the windows are all one moulding, so you have to carefully push the windows in as you pry the roof off.  None of my attempts at this so far have been at all successful.

 

Am I going about this the right way, or is there another trick to it?

[sjp23480]

No you have it right, and similar to the Lima CCT van. Roof and windows are one moulding, they just take some persuading to be parted from the body. Good luck!

Steve

[cctransuk]

I have acquired a Lima LMS 42ft GUV and I want to change the bogies & wheels - the Lima wheels are under-sized and have over-sized flanges.  I can't just swap in a Hornby wheel set because the Lima bogies are a fraction too narrow, so I plan to use a pair of the Bachmann LMS bogies.  The problem is that the bogie mounting points on the GUV are not compatible with the Bachmann bogies, so I will need to get inside the GUV in order to get them fitted using 5mm screws (as I have done with my Hornby LMS clerestory coaches).  Unfortunately I am having trouble getting the roof off the GUV.  I read somewhere that the roof and the windows are all one moulding, so you have to carefully push the windows in as you pry the roof off.  None of my attempts at this so far have been at all successful.

 

Am I going about this the right way, or is there another trick to it?

 

You are proceeding correctly.

 

However, it always was difficult, even when the plastic was new and reasonably pliable. By now, the plastic will be old, rigid and brittle; you may well have to do some damage to remove the glazing / roof.

 

Whatever; make some slips of 10 thou. plastic card and press each window in, one at a time. The aim is to slip the plastic card between the top of the window and the window frame, so that the window can't spring back into place in the frame. If you can achieve this then the window / roof moulding will pull out when all of the windows have been treated.

 

If this proves impossible, push in each window, whilst supporting the roof, until you hear a crack; repeat for each window, at which point the roof / windows should pull out. The cracks can be repaired with solvent and allowed to set, before refitting the roof.

 

Be brave !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited August 20, 2016 by cctransuk

[Dubloseven]

There was an article in BRM a couple of years ago about upgrading one of these. Also there's a thread on here as well. If you type 'upgrading a Lima 42' LMS GUV' in search you should be able to find it. Also Peter's spares do replacement wheels for these vans too.. sadly I only found out about them after I'd filed the points off some Hornby wheelsets!

 

Regards, Cliff.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Dubloseven

[Leander]

The bogies Lima fitted are BR1s. You need to change them for LMS welded bogies to be accurate.

[DCB]

There was an article in BRM a couple of years ago about upgrading one of these. Also there's a thread on here as well. If you type 'upgrading a Lima 42' LMS GUV' in search you should be able to find it. Also Peter's spares do replacement wheels for these vans too.. sadly I only found out about them after I'd filed the points off some Hornby wheelsets!

 

Regards, Cliff.

Pity Peter's spares don't  do Lima length axles to suit Hornby wheels.    I find the GUV roof is just as likely to snap down the middle when you try to pry it off, I rebogied one with Hornby Dublo bogies keeping Lima wheels which helped it stay on the track, mainly by reducing the amount of rock in the fore and aft plane so I would suggest keeping the amount of rock on your replacement bogie to the minimum

[tractor_37260]

I have acquired a Lima LMS 42ft GUV and I want to change the bogies & wheels - the Lima wheels are under-sized and have over-sized flanges.  I can't just swap in a Hornby wheel set because the Lima bogies are a fraction too narrow, so I plan to use a pair of the Bachmann LMS bogies.  The problem is that the bogie mounting points on the GUV are not compatible with the Bachmann bogies, so I will need to get inside the GUV in order to get them fitted using 5mm screws (as I have done with my Hornby LMS clerestory coaches).  Unfortunately I am having trouble getting the roof off the GUV.  I read somewhere that the roof and the windows are all one moulding, so you have to carefully push the windows in as you pry the roof off.  None of my attempts at this so far have been at all successful.

 

Am I going about this the right way, or is there another trick to it?

 

As others have posted the roof and glazing are one piece, as per most Lima coaches.

 

To avoid cracking the roof, push a toothpick end or similar, in at the bottom of each window to release the glazing,  the roof should then pop up and can be removed.

[cctransuk]

Pity Peter's spares don't  do Lima length axles to suit Hornby wheels.    I find the GUV roof is just as likely to snap down the middle when you try to pry it off, I rebogied one with Hornby Dublo bogies keeping Lima wheels which helped it stay on the track, mainly by reducing the amount of rock in the fore and aft plane so I would suggest keeping the amount of rock on your replacement bogie to the minimum

 

I've purchased Lima length axles from Alan Gibson on occasion.

 

Mind you - the Lima bogies are BR type rather than Stanier, anyway!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[brossard]

Here's the thing I wrote:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88430-upgrading-a-lima-lms-guv/

 

A bit OTT for most people perhaps.

 

John

[Il Grifone]

Hornby wheels will fit on Lima axles as they are both 2mm diameter, but doing this will raise the vehicle slightly. It's better to fit the correct LMS type bogies. (The uninsulated wheel can be a bu**er to shift!)

 

The wooden sticks supplied for stirring tea/coffee can be used as wedges to ease out the windows Just sharpen them to a chisel shape and slide between window and side. The windows can be refitted flush by cutting the raised part of the glazing to fit the window aperture.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Il Grifone

[John Tomlinson]

Once you have separated the roof unit, you may find it worthwhile to saw off the sides, making a cut a few mm below the cantrail. The roof can then be secured when all is finished with a few spots bit of PVA or similar so that it can be removed easily in the future.

 

If you carefully saw round the moulded windows, and file carefully to size they can be used to flushglaze the vehicle, and look quite smart with their printed vertical bars.

 

John.

[DCB]

Slightly off topic but what traffic were these vans used for, I assume they were designed to transport motor cars, but being non gangwayed  they must have been a nuisance to marshall in a passenger train.
Mine spends its time as part of a parcels portion on a triangular working and I assume it transports motor cars 20% of the time and is ECS the rest (Well I do model BR days)

Does anyone know?  Any articles?

 

 

 

Hornby wheels will fit on Lima axles as they are both 2mm diameter, but doing this will raise the vehicle slightly. It's better to fit the correct LMS type bogies. (The uninsulated wheel can be a bu**er to shift!)

 

The wooden sticks supplied for stirring tea/coffee can be used as wedges to ease out the windows Just sharpen them to a chisel shape and slide between window and side. The windows can be refitted flush by cutting the raised part of the glazing to fit the window aperture.

All the lima axles I have ever seen are larger diameter than the  Hornby / Jackson type and Hornby / Jackson wheels will not force on.  Lima axles are H0 gauge, Hornby and Jackson EM gauge  The Lima wheels fit Hornby Dublo bogies and underframes if you file the points off Romford pin point axle bearings, useless information perhaps but they ride beautifully and are uninsulated one side so you can run carriage lighting without draggy pickups but have to use insulated couplings..

Edited August 20, 2016 by DavidCBroad

[ejstubbs]

Many thanks for all the advice and guidance.  Especially useful was the photo, which made me much more confident about what I was likely to break encounter.

 

I happy to say that, by adopting cctransuk's cunning technique, I have now successfully de-roofed the GUV without causing any damage.  Hurrah!  From this point on the job should be straightforward (famous last words?)

[Il Grifone]

Bogie vehicles ride best, I find, if one bogie is allowed to rock fore and aft and side to side and the other just fore and aft (basically a three point suspension). An alternative is to spring all the wheels like the prototype, but the problem is getting just the right amount of 'spring' and ideally the springing for each wheelset should be slightly different from the others to avoid them all 'bouncing' together.

 

Different makes all used slightly different axle diameters at one time from Peco Insulaxles which are about 1.8mm up to Dublo and Tri-ang which are slightly over 2mm (something Imperial I assume). Jackson swopped from about 1.9mm to 2mm at one point, so it is not always easy to swop wheels. Today's 4mm standard is 2mm and 26mm over pinpoints, but not all makes follow this....

 

I'll check on Lima - I know Rivarossi are 2mm, as I've fitted some of mine with Hornby wheels on the Rivarossi axles. (I had the idea of running them on 17.5mm gauge (the correct gauge for 1:82 scale), but have decided it's not worth the hassle....)

Edited August 20, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Fat Controller]

Slightly off topic but what traffic were these vans used for, I assume they were designed to transport motor cars, but being non gangwayed  they must have been a nuisance to marshall in a passenger train.

Mine spends its time as part of a parcels portion on a triangular working and I assume it transports motor cars 20% of the time and is ECS the rest (Well I do model BR days)

Does anyone know?  Any articles?

 

 

 

All the lima axles I have ever seen are larger diameter than the  Hornby / Jackson type and Hornby / Jackson wheels will not force on.  Lima axles are H0 gauge, Hornby and Jackson EM gauge  The Lima wheels fit Hornby Dublo bogies and underframes if you file the points off Romford pin point axle bearings, useless information perhaps but they ride beautifully and are uninsulated one side so you can run carriage lighting without draggy pickups but have to use insulated couplings..

They were used to carry motor cars, and also bulky items such as theatre scenery, as well as parcels and mails; the end doors wouldn't have presented a problem, as they'd be formed at front or rear of a passenger train, though more usually, they'd be found in parcels workings. I have seen a photo of MGs being loaded at Abingdon, where Stanier CCTs were mixed with ex-NER examples, and also ex-GWR ASMOs.

There was another Diagram, which had identical sides, but a higher roof, described as an Aeroplane Van.

The Aeroplane Vans went by the mid-1960s, but the others soldiered on until the late 1970s.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Slightly off topic but what traffic were these vans used for, I assume they were designed to transport motor cars, but being non gangwayed  they must have been a nuisance to marshall in a passenger train.

Mine spends its time as part of a parcels portion on a triangular working and I assume it transports motor cars 20% of the time and is ECS the rest (Well I do model BR days)

Does anyone know?  Any articles?

 

There is an Eric Treacy photo of a parcels train at Edge Hill in the 1930s made up of Stove R, 2x GWR six-wheel Siphons, Stove R, 2x 42ft GUV.

[Black5]

Apologies for deviating from the subject but looking at The Signal Engineers blog and in particular his blog heading Ansells, The Mild (referring to the beer ) brought back a lot of memories. Down here in Fleet in Hampshire back in the sixties our local pub used to sell Ansells King Pin, a superb brew. Many an evening was spent there with a good mate and seeing the picture jogged the memory.

Happy days

Back to the railways.

Cheers just now.

Jim.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Apologies for deviating from the subject but looking at The Signal Engineers blog and in particular his blog heading Ansells, The Mild (referring to the beer ) brought back a lot of memories. Down here in Fleet in Hampshire back in the sixties our local pub used to sell Ansells King Pin, a superb brew. Many an evening was spent there with a good mate and seeing the picture jogged the memory.

Happy days

Back to the railways.

Cheers just now.

Jim.

 I remember Kingpin very well. It could be bought in small metal barrels which we called Sputniks. I think these held about 16 pints which made it ideal for small sports clubs etc, as you got through them quickly and the beer was always in good condition.

[Dominion]

I have added Bachmann LMS bogies to a few of these now, without having to remove the roof, or modify the bogie pivot holes.

 

I use 3 different diameters of evergreen plastic tube, that neatly fit inside each other, and some washers.

 

The smallest tube is slightly larger than the mounting hole. I cut a post about 14mm long, from memory (length not crucial) and then cut a thin slit in one end about 5mm deep. It then becomes a nice friction fit into the underside of the van.

 

The largest diameter tube fits inside the hole in the Bachmann bogie, and is short, only as deep as the bogie, plus a little longer to fit inside some of the washers. A slight chamfer helps to get the tube fitted into the bogie neatly. The middle size tube then nicely fits exactly between the large and small size tubes and the remaining washers, and extends from the underside of the van floor to the underside of the bogie, 8 mm long ish. Again exact length not critical. It is free to rotate on the post and in the bogie bushing.

 

The ride height is set by a stack of washers. I used 4 on each pivot that stacked to about 5.1 mm. I found the cheap washers from the hardware store varied in thickness, which actually helped to make up stacks of the height I wanted. They also add a little useful weight low down too. 2 smaller diameter ones fit just inside the lugs on the van floor. The 2 bottom ones fit just inside the flat portion of the top side of the Bachmann LMS bogie. The ride height looks ok, perhaps a fraction high but it allows the Bachmann flanges to run freely. If you want to lower it more you would have to remove a little material from the stepped floor of the van at each bogie inner end. ( and use a slightly shorter stack of washers)

 

A screw in the bottom of the smaller tube post retains the bogie on the bottom of the post. The friction fit in the van floor is enough to hold the whole assembly in place.

 

If anyone wants more detail, I can measure the tube diameters tomorrow. Tom

[Chuffed 1]

Have just reordered one, Comet LMS bogies and opted to replace the ventilators though some examples were similar to Lima’s version.

 

For the buffers I replaced them with ex-Hornby Gresley buffer beam assembly cut off one of the spare under frames bought from Hornby spares, and going spare.

 

These give sprung half-moon buffers close to the prototype and really transform the ends.  Just remember to cut off the gangway buffer stubs.

 

Roger

Edited April 10, 2021 by Chuffed 1