davie Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Hi, I am a novice and new to the world of model railways. I am experiencing a loss of power in my layout at particular points in my layout as trains seem to slow down and I am unsure why. The layout is very new, the track is clean and it is DC being powered by a Gaugemaster controller. The controller is wired to a piece of track with connectors on it. I assume the issue is something to do with wiring in some way after looking at youtube videos and reading online articles. However, with being a novice I do not understand how to fix the problem to make the power consistent and ensure trains run at a constant speed throughout the layout. It is a single track loop with some sidings and an inner loop for a through station. I have attached a drawing below. Please can someone give me advice / assistance in a way that a novice like myself can understand. Many thanks Davie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Hello Dave - Welcome. The usual culprits for loss of power (drop in voltage) are problems with rail joiners and problems with point blades. You could use a volt meter and check the voltage across the track at various locations and it might narrow the location down. Rail joiners need to be a tight fit between rails. Point blades need to be pressed tight against the stock rail. Could you operate your train and physically push the point blades across to confirm that they are transferring power correctly? What you do about it if they are not working properly is another question! Some people might like more details, set track or flexi track, new or second hand, make? Good luck Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davie Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 Hi Ray, thanks for taking the time to reply. All the track is brand new Peco Set track and is still clean. Based on my drawing, the power connection is at the top right corner of the layout while trains start to slow at the top left corner when travelling anti clockwise before speeding up when approaching the power connection again. There is no issue when trains are travelling clockwise and power seems to be able to get through the points when I push the blades manually. It is so frustrating and I realy don't understand what the issue may be. I used my father's DMM and there is a constant voltage going round which is even more confusing as to the cause of trains slowing down /speeding up. On looking at other layout videos they seem to have a spaghetti junction of wiring under the baseboard, however I do not understand what I would be doing with frogs, dropper wires, common rails etc. It all seems so confusing for someone with no knowledge of electronics/mechanics. Apologies! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Hello again Davie You sound to have been busy. Another thought - if the voltage is holding up with the DMM then perhaps the problem is not the track but the motive power. Long locomotives do not like going round tight radius set track curves. You don't say whether you have tried different locomotives. The way that engines are produced these days it would not surprise me to find that it might run better in one direction rather than in the other. So - what type of engine and what radius curve? Bachmann and Hornby can be quite specific as to what minimum radius should be used with which model. It might just be a running in / lubrication issue. Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Most rail is nickel silver, which is a poor conductor compared to copper. Rail joiners also create gaps in the circuit which can build up with metal oxide. A 6x4 layout is not very big & volt drop should be low enough that it is not noticeable. You should not have to worry about multiple feeds. You would not notice an issue if measuring voltage with a multimeter without any loco running This is because a multimeter's resistance is huge & any resistance you may have in the circuit (potentially causing your issue) will be very low, therefore negligible by comparison. The applied voltage splits proportionally across the resistances. Double negligible is still negligible. A much better way to trace this type of fault with a multimeter is switch it to resistance. Remove your controller & replace it with a wire shorting the rails out. Then go around the layout measuring resistance across the running rails. You should be seeing very low values all the way around. You may even see the resistance so low that the meter rounds it down to zero (every wire/rail has resistance unless you cool it down with some liquid nitrogen). If you see a change, you will quickly find your bad joint. The fact you only have an issue in 1 direction is puzzling. Hopefully you will find something with your resistance testing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Hi, I take it all of the points are insulfrog and not electrofrog because if live point frogs are facing one another without isolated rail joiners a short circuit can occur. Depending on the severity and polarity the train may stop or just slow down, so direction of train, and therefore current, could explain why it only slows in one direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davie Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 Hi Ray, Dare I say it but have been using several Lima class 37 locos which lets me know that the issue is not particular to just 1 specifi loco. I then tried several Lima class 47 locos and the same result. Repeated with Bachmann 170, Hornby 156, Bachmann 08 & Bachmann 25. The issue is less obvious with the Hornby/Bachmann items as they are more modern in terms of internal design than the Lima and are much quieter/smoother however the same problem arises. The curves are sharp and there are 2 large curves in each corner of the layout which makes a rounded 90degree angle which the stock seems to all go round fine. When I swap the location of where the power source connects to the board (i.e move from top right of layout to top left) the slowing problem just moves round the board to another area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davie Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 Hi, I take it all of the points are insulfrog and not electrofrog because if live point frogs are facing one another without isolated rail joiners a short circuit can occur. Depending on the severity and polarity the train may stop or just slow down, so direction of train, and therefore current, could explain why it only slows in one direction. Hi Baby Deltic, I'm afraid I don't know what insulfrogs and isolated rail joiners are. I must apologise that I am a novice here and keen to learn from you guys' expertise. On the main loop there are 3x Peco ST240 right hand setrack points plus 1x Peco ST241 left hand point. How do I isolate rail joiners and what can you suggest to resolve my issue if possible? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davie Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 Most rail is nickel silver, which is a poor conductor compared to copper. Rail joiners also create gaps in the circuit which can build up with metal oxide. A 6x4 layout is not very big & volt drop should be low enough that it is not noticeable. You should not have to worry about multiple feeds. You would not notice an issue if measuring voltage with a multimeter without any loco running This is because a multimeter's resistance is huge & any resistance you may have in the circuit (potentially causing your issue) will be very low, therefore negligible by comparison. The applied voltage splits proportionally across the resistances. Double negligible is still negligible. A much better way to trace this type of fault with a multimeter is switch it to resistance. Remove your controller & replace it with a wire shorting the rails out. Then go around the layout measuring resistance across the running rails. You should be seeing very low values all the way around. You may even see the resistance so low that the meter rounds it down to zero (every wire/rail has resistance unless you cool it down with some liquid nitrogen). If you see a change, you will quickly find your bad joint. The fact you only have an issue in 1 direction is puzzling. Hopefully you will find something with your resistance testing. Thank you Pete for taking the time to offer some advice. I will try the DMM tomorrow as you suggest and let you know how it goes. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted November 4, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 4, 2016 Davie: Basics: The frog is where the rails cross in the points, also called the common crossing. Since you are using Setrack, you have Insulfrogs (Insulated or plastic frogs) and the point rail and rail beyond the frog are not powered on the unused track. Electrofrog (all-rail frogs) have a continuous connection from one point through the frog to the other point and rails beyond the frog are powered to the usable side. Insulated rail joiners or plastic rail joiners (Peco SL11). Made in plastic with a bit in the middle to keep the rails apart. Sometimes just called gaps, made by cutting through the rail and adding a plastic separator. Using Setrack means that you don't have some of the gaps that are mandatory with Electrofrogs. But you can put a gap in the frog rail a distance away to keep a train from running through points set against it. My preference is to put your feed in the top left corner as that feeds everything from the point end of the points. There may be a bad contact on a set of points -- dust or dirt. If your train speeds up just after it goes through points, those are the ones to look at. If it speeds up at a rail joint, that is to be examined. Did you put the track together and take it apart a lot setting up your layout? Rail joiners open out a bit with repeated use and need a squeeze with pliers or replacement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelrow Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 Dave, most people with DC, seem to think that a Bus, and Droppers, only apply to DCC. several of us DC modellers employ a DC bus, which will ensure no loss of current, as it takes out the joiner problem, from the equation. By simply soldering some dropper wires to the track, and connecting underneath, to a suitable bus cable, any loss of power, will then be down solely to loco. john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 Hello Dave .. When I swap the location of where the power source connects to the board (i.e move from top right of layout to top left) the slowing problem just moves round the board to another area. Obviously you couldn't sleep. Lots of good advice. Moving round the board does rather sound like a rail joiner issue. Measuring resistance could be quite instructive. My DC analogue layout is divided up into 'Sections' with separate feeds to both rails. Each Section is typically less than ten feet long. Importantly each Section will usually be made up of long lengths of Peco Streamline nickel silver flexible track with only two or three Peco rail joiners either side of the power feeds. You can read more on my Blog. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 I would suggest a second power feed to the opposite side of the layout using some beefy cable (1.5mm² or better 2.5mm²). The feeds should be at either end of the loop, outside the points. Ideally there should be an insulated rail joiner on the inner rail at the top of the layout and in both legs of the loop. ( I'll try and remember to post a diagram...) Trains will slow down on tight curves anyway, due to friction between the wheels and the rails. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Here's the diagram I promised The insulated rail joiners (indicated in red) are not essential, but enable the points concerned to isolate locomotives on the main line. The locations of the feeds and insulators are not fixed. Anywhere in the section will do as is convenient. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davie Posted November 6, 2016 Author Share Posted November 6, 2016 Dave, most people with DC, seem to think that a Bus, and Droppers, only apply to DCC. several of us DC modellers employ a DC bus, which will ensure no loss of current, as it takes out the joiner problem, from the equation. By simply soldering some dropper wires to the track, and connecting underneath, to a suitable bus cable, any loss of power, will then be down solely to loco. john Hi, thank you for the advice. Please can tou advise how to go about using the dropper wires idea on my layout diagram? How far apart should the droppers be positioned? I have had a go at trying this but when placed within the bottom loops and if there is a loco present on the line, the points don't isolate the line and the loco continues to run. How would I resolve this problem? Is this something to do with needing isolating rail joiners? Sorry for all the questions...I am new to this and am trying to get my head around it all. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davie Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Davie: Basics: The frog is where the rails cross in the points, also called the common crossing. Since you are using Setrack, you have Insulfrogs (Insulated or plastic frogs) and the point rail and rail beyond the frog are not powered on the unused track. Electrofrog (all-rail frogs) have a continuous connection from one point through the frog to the other point and rails beyond the frog are powered to the usable side. Insulated rail joiners or plastic rail joiners (Peco SL11). Made in plastic with a bit in the middle to keep the rails apart. Sometimes just called gaps, made by cutting through the rail and adding a plastic separator. Using Setrack means that you don't have some of the gaps that are mandatory with Electrofrogs. But you can put a gap in the frog rail a distance away to keep a train from running through points set against it. My preference is to put your feed in the top left corner as that feeds everything from the point end of the points. There may be a bad contact on a set of points -- dust or dirt. If your train speeds up just after it goes through points, those are the ones to look at. If it speeds up at a rail joint, that is to be examined. Did you put the track together and take it apart a lot setting up your layout? Rail joiners open out a bit with repeated use and need a squeeze with pliers or replacement. Hi, thank you for your advice and explanation. I have tried the power feed at the top left as you suggest but locos them start to slow down heading towards the bottom right curves. I have ordered a set of new points just in case the ones I have are dirty or damaged from building the layout. If was to use the plastic rail joints where should these be placed in ur opinion? Any further suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davie Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Here's the diagram I promised Scan_20161106.jpg The insulated rail joiners (indicated in red) are not essential, but enable the points concerned to isolate locomotives on the main line. The locations of the feeds and insulators are not fixed. Anywhere in the section will do as is convenient. Hi David, Thank you for your suggestion and taking the time to supply a diagram, really appreciate that. I have followed it exactly however it seems to result in the loco slowing significantly when passing over the plastic rail joiners on both loops at the bottom of the layout. The loco will then speed up at the power feed at the right hand side. I have ordered new points in case there is an issue there, however the process is becoming a little demoralising when I cannot figure out what the problem is. If the power drops away on both loops at the bottom of the layout between the plastic rail joiners and the points, would this suggest the points are faulty or does it mean that power feeds are required? If the latter, how would the loops be isolated to stop locos in both running simultaneously? Any further advice or diagrams would be appreciated. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted November 7, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2016 Hi David, Thank you for your suggestion and taking the time to supply a diagram, really appreciate that. I have followed it exactly however it seems to result in the loco slowing significantly when passing over the plastic rail joiners on both loops at the bottom of the layout. The loco will then speed up at the power feed at the right hand side. I have ordered new points in case there is an issue there, however the process is becoming a little demoralising when I cannot figure out what the problem is. If the power drops away on both loops at the bottom of the layout between the plastic rail joiners and the points, would this suggest the points are faulty or does it mean that power feeds are required? If the latter, how would the loops be isolated to stop locos in both running simultaneously? Any further advice or diagrams would be appreciated. Thanks Power loss causing slow running, is caused by poor contact. I would suggest this is because the rail joiners (metal ones of course) aren't making proper contact. This is very common if using 2nd hand rail and/or joiners. What I suggest you buy are some test leads, so you can temporarily connect across various gaps (rail joins) to assist in finding where your faults are. They can be found at electronic supply shops anywhere & look like this. https://www.jaycar.com.au/standard-jumper-test-lead-kit/p/WC6010 Obviously that's an Australian supplier, but they will be available near you. Once you have found the problem areas, you can provide a permanent solution, by preferably soldering in wires. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Davie I've been reading this since you first posted, and have expected someone to pick up on one of your first comments. You said: The layout is very new, the track is clean It's unclear if you are linking those two statement assuming the track is clean because it's new, or if you have meticulously cleaned, inspected, and tested it's cleanliness. You certainly cannot rely on just your eyes. Tarnishing, dirt collection, etc is something that starts happening from the moment track comes off the production line. The track would need to be hermetically sealed at that point to be certain that "new" means "clean" at point-of-sale. In reality you have no real idea (I assume) how 'new' your track actually is. It could be anything from days to years since the track you purchased new was actually produced. So unless you really have scrubbed it clean (figuratively speaking) since laying it, I recommend you do it now. A Peco / Hornby or whatever track rubber is an easy way; or IPA on a lint-free cloth. There are dozens more ways but these are reliable, cheap, and time-tested. You have been given heaps of really good suggestions on here, but if you don't start from the most basic then you will go round and round trying everything for ever. (ps - I 'think' I've read all of this thread, but if I missed someone else raising this earlier I do apologise). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Hi Davie You're welcome! There is no obvious reason for the trains to slow down either side of the insulated joiners beyond the metal ones making poor contact, This should not be a problem with new track however. I assume that it is nickel silver and not steel. The latter is notorious for bad contact due to crud and corrosion. You could try cleaning the rail surface - go easy with a Peco rubber as it is abrasive and tends to leave bits all over everything. A scratched rail surface is a magnet for crud. A faulty point would result in the loco slowing as it passed onto the blades*. This would also happen with rail joints. Try running slowly and see where she stalls or measure the voltage across the joints as the train passes - any reading at all will indicate a fault. * Blade switching is not very reliable, but again should not be a problem with new track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Never assume anything! Never assume fishplates are making a good electrical contact. Never assume a soldered joint is good. Never assume track is clean. Never assume wheels are clean. ....... The list is endless, check everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted November 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2016 Hi Davie I agree with all that has been said so far. What "thickess" of wire are you using from your controller to connect to the track? It occurs to me that if this is too fine, then it will act as a bottleneck and restrict the current flowing to the track. I'd suggest using a minimum of 16/.02 ~ 3amp wire and certainly if you are using say 7/.02 or single core wire then this will reduce what gets to the track. Some of the old Lima motors can also be a bit power hungry, so they would also be more likely to slow down if power was restricted. Good luck! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin@gorleston Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I was always under the impression that good dcc practice was to have droppers from every piece of track to the buss I don't want to have to rely on fish-plates for electrical continuityand see no reason why it should be different for a DC layout It's certainly the way that I do the electrics even if it is a pain in the proverbial...... Regards Colin ( electrician by trade ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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