Tri-ang Railways.

[Golden Fleece 30]

the motor is not removable, without taking the chassis apart.

 

I never knew that, you learn something everyday (well some days lol).

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

I never knew that, you learn something everyday (well some days lol).

 

Garry

 

Hi Garry

 

On the early chassis there is a vertical (almost) slot which holds two flanges on the front of the motor*. This is closed all around, trapping the motor. They soon saw the error of their ways and modified the slot so that the motor can be pulled out backwards. It took Dublo and Trix  a bit longer (Dublo never really got the idea 100%). Even in the case of Tri-ang, motor bogies seem to have been considered as a complete unit.

 

* X-02 I believe, but I'm never quite sure. Apart from this it's much the same as the X-04.

 

David

[Golden Fleece 30]

On the early chassis there is a vertical (almost) slot which holds two flanges on the front of the motor*. This is closed all around, trapping the motor.

 

Hi David, basically then this is like the TT 0-6-0 and Castle chassis where the motor bearing plates are trapped in the side frame slots?

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Hi Garry,

 

I haven't got a TT chassis to hand, but IIRC that is the case. From what I recall, there is sufficient clearance (or the screw is hidden behind the wheel like on the 0-6-0 chassis) to enable the motor to be removed without disturbing the wheels, not that you need to remove the motor very often.

 

There are quite a few variations in the Princess chassis....

 

David

Edited July 13, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi David,

 

There are quite a few variations in the Princess chassis.

 

Apart from different chassis designs and valve gear etc the big two variations I know off are the plunger pick-ups as the loco had plastic driving wheels and before that a horizontal roller.  I have known about the plungers since the 60's but I only found out about the roller about a year ago when someone posted a photo on a different site.

 

Here is the TT 0-6-0 (now an 0-4-4) and you can see the screws holding the side plates on although the rear one has been moved, and the bearing slots.

#

Garry

Edited July 13, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Hroth]

Hi Garry

 

On the early chassis there is a vertical (almost) slot which holds two flanges on the front of the motor*. This is closed all around, trapping the motor. They soon saw the error of their ways and modified the slot so that the motor can be pulled out backwards. It took Dublo and Trix  a bit longer (Dublo never really got the idea 100%). Even in the case of Tri-ang, motor bogies seem to have been considered as a complete unit.

 

* X-02 I believe, but I'm never quite sure. Apart from this it's much the same as the X-04.

 

David

As I understand the Triang motor chronology, its:

 

X01 - Disk commutator (early plastic Princesses)

X03 - Like an X04 but without felt oil pads (early Princesses with metal chassis and wheels)

X03,5 - As the X03 but with an oil pad on the front bearing (I suppose by this point, Jintys had 'em too)

X04 - Oil pads fore and aft. The mainstream Triang motor.

 

Dunno what happened to X02!

[Hroth]

Hi David,

 

Apart from different chassis designs and valve gear etc the big two variations I know off are the plunger pick-ups as the loco had plastic driving wheels and before that a horizontal roller.  I have known about the plungers since the 60's but I only found out about the roller about a year ago wen someone posted a photo on a different site.

 

Garry

The roller pickup was the Rovex Princess for Marks and Sparks. Abandoned because it picked up dirt very easily, modified to plungers for the first general production locos with plastic wheels. Abandoned because they used to lift the wheels off the track!

 

Then Triang introduced metal chassis and wheels (about 1955?) and did away with the plungers altogether.

[Il Grifone]

Hi David,

 

Apart from different chassis designs and valve gear etc the big two variations I know off are the plunger pick-ups as the loco had plastic driving wheels and before that a horizontal roller.  I have known about the plungers since the 60's but I only found out about the roller about a year ago when someone posted a photo on a different site.

 

Here is the TT 0-6-0 (now an 0-4-4) and you can see the screws holding the side plates on although the rear one has been moved, and the bearing slots.

#

Garry

 

Hi Garry,

 

That's as I remember it, though I'd forgotten that the wheels are held in by a keeper plate. AFAIK the early Princess didn't have this luxury; the axles went through holes in the frames. The Rovex locomotive with roller pickups is quite rare. They didn't make many and most of those probably got thrown out - a warped acetate chassis is not going to work very well. The Rovex coaches seem to have survived rather more successfully though invariably warped.

 

I must dig out my copy of the Tri-ang bible and brush up on motors. The disc commutator was the Zenith motor (my KMR compound has a very delicate and decrepit example - it runs but I wouldn't put any money on it continuing to do so.

I had a plunger chassis about ten years ago  in a very poor (spares only) state. I find I have the motor from one with the flanges filed off. I can't remember if the motor is from this and I'm the guilty party or I acquired it in that state. It runs OK in a later chassis but obviously the front mounting is non existent and it tends to move about. I'll find a use for it in something else.... (waste not, want not!)

 

David

Edited July 14, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Il Grifone]

I've just staggered downstairs with the book....

 

From pages 39/40:-

 

X.01 -  Original disc commutator 'Zenith' type motor. (The same but less gear box.)

X.02 -  as X-01, but with drum commutator

X.03 -  X.02 modified to allow removal from chassis

X.04 -  X.03 fitted with oil retaining pads and  Alcomax magnet replaces AlNiCo

 

I believe that X.03 is now an X-04 with a plastic single start worm gear  

 

XT.60  TT motor - fitted to the 'singles'

 

X.500  'Rocket' motor

 

There is no mention of X.03s with felt pads, but this does not mean they do not exist.

 

My copy of the book states that X.04s "made 30 years ago are still in use today". We can now make that, "over 60 years!"

Edited July 14, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi David,

 

This Zenith motor came into my possession a couple of weeks ago in the TT collection I bought. Rovex/Tri-ang must have added the 0 to the numbers as this is just X3. The note states that brushes should only be changed by sending it back to GEM. Would this entail removing the wheels as taking off and putting back on is not going to keep them tight on the axle. The rear bearing seems to be a Zinc alloy type with nothing else in the center. Note two brass screws used to keep it together.

 

The early 00 2-6-2 tanks had the TT style keeper plate holding the wheels in place and as far as I know this was the only loco so equipped, or, I have not come across the others as yet.

 

Garry

Edited July 15, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Il Grifone]

Hi Garry,

 

As can be seen it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.... And was quite expensive at £1 (something like £25-30 today). The brush repair charge of 3/6d was quite reasonable however. That figure would just about cover the postage today. A lot more than replacing a set of Dublo, Trix or Tri-ang brushes however, which could be done at home for about a shilling.

 

It probably involved completely dismantling the motor and remagnetising.

 

David

Edited July 15, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi David, looking at it again I guess the worm had to be removed to get the front plate off to have access to the commutator. The magnet is only held in with it's magnetism and tape. It is a good job the XO4 was designed which in my opinion was the best motor ever made for reliability, strength, ease of use, ease of repair and lastly cost. It could not be beaten taking all those into account.

 

Garry

[sagaguy]

I think Gem got the packaging & illustration wrong,this motor would appear to be an X01,the X3 or X03 had a drum commutator.I can only assume that Gem had to relabel it for their own sales.

 

             http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OONew/X01.htm

 

Confusion reigns,Ray.

[Golden Fleece 30]

It's not the same motor Ray. The Tri-ang one does not have carbon brushes like the Zenith but does have a brass rear bearing plate instead of the diecast one and a larger magnet. Also there is a single screw through the rear as opposed to the two through the bearing plate on the Zenith. This could be why it is a different number and uses a 3 as it is a different style as it is not a copy of the XO3 as such.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Il Grifone]

According to the book the X.01 was the same as the Zenith X.3, but did not have a gearbox.

 

The motor in my Compound does not have carbon brushes, but two phosphor bronze (I assume) contact strips. This could mean either it's not a Zenith or the bushes are worn out. In any case any future attempt to produce a working addition to the stud will require a new chassis. I don't want to touch this one - I don't know whether is's original KMR but it did come with the locomotive. I could pinch the wheels and motion. They're Romford and easily replaced.

 

At least with the compound there is no discussion about the crank throw like with the 2P (It could be the same?). It's 26" so the Romford wheels are about right, just as long as one doesn't count the spokes!

 

EDIT. Looking at the above link mine is like this, so possibly it's actually an X.01.

 

The X.04 is generally an excellent motor. There was an article in the model press years ago about how to tune them. IIRC this involved balancing the armature and replacing the bearings with 'government surplus' 3/32" ball races.

 

The Airfix MW.005 (I think that's the right catalogue number) can be fitted in it's place and has the advantages of a five pole armature and a slower rotational speed of 12,000 r.p.m. it's also slightly smaller and  so leaves more room for lead.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Il Grifone

[sagaguy]

I believe that the MW motors were designed for the slot car fraternity,Model Road Racing company(MMRC) comes to mind.They may have been marketed by Geoff Wright of Meccano parts fame who had a shop in Henley on Thames,(i still miss that shop).

 

                     Ray.

[Il Grifone]

I believe that the MW motors were designed for the slot car fraternity,Model Road Racing company(MMRC) comes to mind.They may have been marketed by Geoff Wright of Meccano parts fame who had a shop in Henley on Thames,(i still miss that shop).

 

                     Ray.

 

Some were I understand (Airfix also had an interest in slot racing at the time - the sixties. I had a Lotus Cortina and my Brother an MG 1100*), but this one was intended for model trains. The slot car fraternity/sorority like their motors to run rather faster than this. Some at least of the Scalextric cars had a version of the X.04 with a spur gear. My brother had a Ford GT40 which went like the proverbial sh*t house door. His Porsche might have been even faster, but we could never persuade it to stay on the track ....

 

* These were based on the 1:32 car kits

[BR60103]

One of my school friends built a turntable and powered it with a spare X04. Between the motor and the turntable he managed to put the mechanism from a clock radio and a full set of Meccano gears.

The turntable would turn at (IIRC) about 1 rpm at full speed and was not stoppable by hand.

[Il Grifone]

I believe the Tri-ang turntable was powered by an X.04

 

(I could be wrong. I've never owned one. The Dublo turntable is manually powered.)

[Golden Fleece 30]

The origional Tri-ang turntable was powered by the XO4. This turntable was the one for standard grey track. The base was a large metal disc, similar to Dublo, and a steel knurled pin driven from the motor was mounted nearly vertically rubbing against the discs edge. The second version, for super 4 track and TT ones, used the TT/4-2-2 XT60 motor through two worms and two cogs. This was Tri-ang's best looking of the 3 they made. The last version from Margate, for series 6 track, went back to the XO4. This was the worst looking one of all. The origional turntable was electric only, the second one was manual with your finger or electrical with a motorising kit available separately for manual ones and the last one was manual turned by turning a water crane mounted at the side. A motorising kit was available for this too.

 

Garry

Edited July 16, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Golden Fleece 30]

The origional turntable had two inlet/outlet tracks 180 degrees apart with no indexing. It was hit or miss taking your finger of the power button as to where it stopped. The second version had 3 outlets and one more at 180 degrees to the centre one. This had a slight delay in movement when the bridge aligned with another track. This was done by having some teeth half removed on the drive cog. I have no idea about the last one as it was a very poor model but had I think 7 outlets to it.

 

Garry

[sandwich station]

I think the one you talk of with multi outlets would be the Hornby one made from the mid 70's onwards.

[Golden Fleece 30]

I think the one you talk of with multi outlets would be the Hornby one made from the mid 70's onwards.

Thats correct but to all intents and purposes the company is still Tri-ang to me. They bought the name from Hornby Dublo during the 1964 takeover to use the name so will always be Tri-ang to me.

 

Garry

[sandwich station]

Thats correct but to all intents and purposes the company is still Tri-ang to me. They bought the name from Hornby Dublo during the 1964 takeover to use the name so will always be Tri-ang to me.

 

Garry

Do you still class them at Triang now over 40 years later?

[Golden Fleece 30]

I certainly do, that is what they started out as and to me Hornby relates to Dublo and always will. It is no good using a better competitors name to try to alter your image. After all these years it is still Hornby AND Tri-ang.

 

If you look at some of my YouTube videos I still class it as Dublo 3-rail even though there is no Dublo track used and my Tri-ang locos are converted to 3-rail, mostly having the insulated wheels replaced with non insulated ones.

 

Garry

Edited July 16, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30