Tri-ang Railways.

[Il Grifone]

Garry,

 

Do you cone the treads at all as some of the wheels are uncompromisingly square? I see on the NMRA site (RP25 page) it states that coning is not necessary, though specifying 3°  (1 in 20) as assisting the wheels to centre, Theoretically the rails should be inclined at the same angle, but AFAIK  hardly anyone bothers. The Dublo rail has a rounded head so is automatically tangential to the wheel.

 

The wheels will come off the plastic axles quite easily,  but then a substitute axle would be needed to turn them. I find they run quite well 'as is', however, being all the later production, but I prefer Dublo or Formoway track. I have a 'thing' about running 4mm stock on 3.5mm track. The narrow gauge I can live with. EM is better, but life is too short.... (I do build stock to accomodate EM wheelsets, but the wheels are gauged for 00*. Some wheelsets are regauged 2.2mm thick EM, but still seem perfectly happy (B-B 14.8mm for these) though are obviously less forgiving of bad tracklaying.)

 

* My 1920's GWR layout is still a future project, so the stock for this is EM.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi David, no coning is done, too much setting up and messing around. Once the tool is set up everything is done in the horizontal axis. I do file a very small radius on the top of the flange as after machining it is quite sharp. I don't think Tri-ang had coned the drivers, if they did it was small, but what was noticeable is there was often a rough area around the wheel perimeter and a sharp edge on the outside edge of the tread. A slight touch with a file while in the lathe put a very fine chamfer on the edge and fine wet n dry smoothed the treads.

 

Garry

[Nearholmer]

Conicity, radii at the flange-root and tip, and very slight conicity on the flange itself are all important in practice.

 

At 00, it is probably possible to get away without them, at 0 it is very unwise to try, and at 16mm/ft it is sheer folly, because, by that size, the mass and real-world physics are asserting themselves seriously ......... "square cut" wheels are a nightmare in 16mm/ft, leading to endless derailments ....... I know, because I fitted some very 'iffy' wheels supplied with kits, and then had to change them for decent ones.

 

The subtle conicity on the flange is probably the angle that is most important in small scale models, because without it a square-cut flange will climb over the rail on even quite a shallow curve.

 

Kevin

[Golden Fleece 30]

I have certainly not had any problems running my modified locos and any coning will only be done with factory made wheels. I cannot say Tri-ang locos have it or not but it does not look like it on the open spoke type as in the photo. There is no way I can measure but look at the videos to see the running.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Dublo sintered iron wheels are certainly square in both flange and tread, but don't seem to be particularly prone to derailments (drag is another matter!) and Tri-ang driving wheels (particularly the open spoke type) appear to have little or no coning and also stay on the rails. Both are assisted by deep flanges of course.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Dublo sintered iron wheels are certainly square in both flange and tread, but don't seem to be particularly prone to derailments (drag is another matter!) and Tri-ang driving wheels (particularly the open spoke type) appear to have little or no coning and also stay on the rails. Both are assisted by deep flanges of course.

That's right, I agree. I cannot put like etc on a comment as we are on holiday and using my phone and all the like, agree buttons do not appear on it lol

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Finding both a) my micrometer and b) a Tri-ang 'Jinty' with solid wheels at the same time,       I was able to measure the wheel diameter. Base of flange 18.85 mm and edge of wheel 18.80mm i.e. the wheel is coned 0.025mm in 3mm or 1 in 120 ≈  ½°.  Better than nothing, but not much! To my eye it looks flat.

[Nearholmer]

Sounds more like a mould-release angle than proper tread conicity.

 

K

[Golden Fleece 30]

I have bought some Romford gears and would like to know what the distance should be between the axle and motor shaft should be for smooth running.  The gear wheel is 13.3mm dia and the worm 7.1 (30:1 and 60:1 sets) which tally's with an internet sites dimensions.  They then say the centres should be 9.53mm which is a calculation I cannot work out due to the worm sitting in the gear obviously but I know there needs to be a very small clearance.  Does any one know if this is correct or not before I do my drawings for the parts to be etched?  This is also posted in the TT technical thread.

 

Garry

[D51]

I have bought some Romford gears and would like to know what the distance should be between the axle and motor shaft should be for smooth running.  The gear wheel is 13.3mm dia and the worm 7.1 (30:1 and 60:1 sets) which tally's with an internet sites dimensions.  They then say the centres should be 9.53mm which is a calculation I cannot work out due to the worm sitting in the gear obviously but I know there needs to be a very small clearance.  Does any one know if this is correct or not before I do my drawings for the parts to be etched?  This is also posted in the TT technical thread.

 

Garry

Yes, as far as I know all the original Romford gearsets from 30:1 to 60:1 were designed for centres of ³/₈", which is 9.53mm in today's measure.

 

Frank

[Golden Fleece 30]

Thank you Frank.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Hi Garry,

 

The dimensions of Romford products are hidden away on their website somewhere. I can't remember the centres for the gears but the 3/8" quoted seems reasonable. They are different from Tri-ang/Hornby I know.

 

Their pinpoint bearings are also different from everyone else's and more importantly the standard specification*. (This can be handy in some cases.)

 

* The point should be 1mm in from the back of the flange (for 26mm axles in W irons spaced at 24mm internal) and coned at 55 degrees to clear the 60 degree angle of the axle point.

 

David

[Golden Fleece 30]

Thanks David, the gears issue is for me to work out some etches for 4 coupled locos in TT where an XT60 will not fit. At the moment I have three to do, an ex LMS compound 4-4-0, Schools and WR 14xx. The Compound was designed for a K's tender drive which I did not know was made in TT so unlikey to get one but I prefer loco driven mechs anyway. The 14xx has a flimsy whitemetal which flexes so an etched nickel one should be more sturdy. The Schools will be for the Atlas model which obviously never had a chassis designed for it.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

I checked on the Romford site and it is indeed ⅜".

 

I've just found this 'must have' and a need another Tri-ang* 37 to repaint or at least a body. (Bachmann are going to do one, but at nearly £200 it is definitely not Grifone friendly - DCC and sound I don't need!)

 

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.docbrown.info%2Fdocspics%2Fzmisc07%2FImg_9506.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.docbrown.info%2Fdocspics%2FArchiveSteam%2Flococlass37.htm&docid=9-T7Lt-952w1GM&tbnid=BU58jiBVyNKQRM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjj2oXd59XTAhXFXRoKHUxaDB8QMwgtKAgwCA..i&w=1000&h=483&bih=745&biw=1447&q=phoenix%20class%2037&ved=0ahUKEwjj2oXd59XTAhXFXRoKHUxaDB8QMwgtKAgwCA&iact=mrc&uact=8

 

It's a phoenix and not a griffon, but near enough! (One can't have everything! )

 

Two 37s went past the house the other evening top and tailing an engineering train. The leading one was in green (37057/D6757?) - another maybe! - and the tail in Colas Rail orange/yellow.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/37190-dalzell/27133513364/in/photostream/

 

* Other makes are available and would do at a push....

Edited May 4, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Robin Brasher]

 

Set R0 is the lowest 'R' number and what started it all for Tri-ang and probably lots of model railway enthusiasts.  According to page 82 of Pat Hammond's Story of Rovex Volume 1 1950 - 1965 over 500,000 black Princess sets were sold in various forms over 13 years which could be the record for British train set sales.

 

A married couple gave sets R0 and R1X to our model railway club. The wife told me how her sister played with one set in the 1960s which is probably the last time it was used. We tested the Black Princess with two wires and, after a bit of prompting, it still worked. Strangely the R0 train set instructions date from August 1955 whereas the R1X instructions date from 1953. My friends are pleased that the train sets have gone to a good home.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Robin Brasher

[Golden Fleece 30]

Nice nostalgic sets.  I was always surprised by the pictures on the lids of the train lengths, even with the short coaches here my Princess would not pull more than 3 never mind uphill with 4 or 5.  The initial stock had a lot of drag but maybe as mine were second hand, I did not start getting anything new until about 1958/59 time.

 

The maroon coaches look to have survived the warping effect, even the blood and custards are not as bad as most I have seen.

 

Garry

[SRman]

I always used to love those cover pics on the train sets and in the catalogues.

Of course, they were posed, as they were almost unworkable with those layouts and positions.

Maybe if they had had DCC in those days ... 

Edited July 10, 2017 by SRman

[uax6]

Are those LMS coaches an oddity? I've not seen that style before, with the toilet windows and then the doors....

 

Andy G

[Il Grifone]

The LMS coaches have the later type of Mk II coupling, so could be polystyrene. Most of the acetate ones are distorted badly by now. The dates of the Instructions  probably reflect revisions/reprints (?). 

 

These were the original ex Rovex Tri-ang coaches. The first pure Tri-ang coaches were the crimson and cream ones from the other set. These were also available in SR green (IIRC they were 6/6d and the LMS ones were a bit cheaper). The Rovex sets show signs of being copied from the pre-war Trix Princess* - The loco has much the same dimensions and the coaches are the same style but considerably shorter. They are supposed to be a later Stanier design I believe. The Trix version was presented as a full 1st (and a Restaurant car), but the Tri-ang version can be found as either 1st or 3rd (possibly composite as well?).

 

*IMHO - I have no evidence.

 

There would be no problem with the layout. Tri-ang points are isolating. It is true it was staged for the photographs of course.

 

AFAIK the LMS wagons and the cimson and cream version of the LMS coach shown were never produced for sale. I have certainly never seen any. The van appears to be based on a L & Y prototype, so would be appropriate. In their Trackmaster incarnation they were produced correctly in GWR grey and LNER brown. Tri-ang ones can be found indiscriminately in these two colours and a large variety of others - white, green and red are common.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Il Grifone

[BernardTPM]

Are those LMS coaches an oddity? I've not seen that style before, with the toilet windows and then the doors....

 

Andy G

That would suggest they are based on LMS 'Vestibule' (Open in BR terms) stock. Obviously only very loosely, of course!

[Robin Brasher]

The LMS coaches have the later type of Mk II coupling, so could be polystyrene. Most of the acetate ones are distorted badly by now. The dates of the Instructions  probably reflect revisions/reprints (?). 

 

These were the original ex Rovex Tri-ang coaches. The first pure Tri-ang coaches were the crimson and cream ones from the other set. These were also available in SR green (IIRC they were 6/6d and the LMS ones were a bit cheaper). The Rovex sets show signs of being copied from the pre-war Trix Princess* - The loco has much the same dimensions and the coaches are the same style but considerably shorter. They are supposed to be a later Stanier design I believe. The Trix version was presented as a full 1st (and a Restaurant car), but the Tri-ang version can be found as either 1st or 3rd (possibly composite as well?).

 

*IMHO - I have no evidence.

 

There would be no problem with the layout. Tri-ang points are isolating. It is true it was staged for the photographs of course.

 

AFAIK the LMS wagons and the cimson and cream version of the LMS coach shown were never produced for sale. I have certainly never seen any. The van appears to be based on a L & Y prototype, so would be appropriate. In their Trackmaster incarnation they were produced correctly in GWR grey and LNER brown. Tri-ang ones can be found indiscriminately in these two colours and a large variety of others - white, green and red are common.

Thank you for your comments. According to Pat Hammond's book on page 83 the crimson and cream coaches were not ready in time for the picture on the box lid of the R1 set that came out in 1952. The coaches were LMS coaches that Tri-ang had repainted crimson and cream.

[Il Grifone]

On closer inspection, there appears to be some bowing in the roof of the RH LMS coach and the truss rod/accumulator moulding is missing. Possibly these parts are still acetate? it is not unknown to find a mixture of plastics in one model. A TC switcher, that passed through my hands had an acetate underframe moulding, though the rest was polystyrene.

 

The R0 set must be later than the R1X, as there are items shown on the lid which did not appear until 1954 (IIRC) (Station units, additional wagons, Jinty etc.).

There are lots of examples of the (rather crude IMHO, but at least 00 scale) Minic road vehicles. I don't recognise the building in the centre foreground however.

 

I wonder how many children were disappointed that the box did not contain all those goodies? We were used to optimistic box lid illustrations back then of course!

 

(Edit for finger trouble.)

Edited July 12, 2017 by Il Grifone

[k9-70]

According to Pat Hammonds book, the R0 box lid dates from around the start of 1955. 

Black and green Princess locomotives, and both tanks, the 0-6-2T clockwork and a pre-production model of the Jinty locomotive.

Three types of coaches to be seen in the photo along with various types of wagons which includes the first two tank wagons which arrived near the end of 1954.

[Hroth]

Interesting stuff about the box lids.

 

My R0 set has the lad in the blue shirt and the trains all being pulled by Lizzies as its photo.  The TV Interference Suppressors Fitted labels are stick ons, rather than printed on the lid and the instruction sheet is pasted inside the lid.  The company address is given as Petersham Road, Richmond, Surrey. and the serial number is R0/300654. The Lizzie has the built up metal chassis with solid wheels and the coaches are maroon with a slight tendancy to bananahood.....  I suppose that it must be one of the earlier sets!

[Il Grifone]

It seems to be one of the earlier sets. Clues are the early MK II coupling - the dropper lacks the 'weight' on the bottom and the motor is not removable, without taking the chassis apart. Only a slight resemblance to a banana is unusual!