Beginner's plea for help

[Jack O Lantern]

G'day everyone.

 

I could really use some advice here.

 

I have dreamt of building a layout for over fify years and decided to buy a couple of Bachmann scene craft buildings.

 

I also wanted to build a scratch built structure and followed Phil's advice and bought some embossed brick card made by Noch.

 

The only problem is that this is three or four times the size of the bricks on the Bachmann buildings and much bigger than the brick paper supplied with the Gaugemaster Fordbridge station.

 

There is something called Redutex but before I waste any more money, I wonder if someone can advise me?

 

Thanks.

 

Jack

[Il Grifone]

The average brick is about 9" x 3" x 4½" (metric nowadays, but it's easier to work out the scale size in imperial). What scale are you using, as this will affect the answer?

[Jack O Lantern]

The average brick is about 9" x 3" x 4½" (metric nowadays, but it's easier to work out the scale size in imperial). What scale are you using, as this will affect the answer?

 

In reality, bricks differ in size. But you might be bitten by the fact that there are different scales to model in, from very small (T, Z, N) via medium (H0, 00) to the large (0 and I) to the very large (G, various outdoor gauges) A good overview of those is from the NMRA. Mind the American terminology, this is NMRA standard S-1.2. (<- that's a download link)  So, a brick in N-scale is about a quarter of the size of that same brick in H0 or 00 scale. Other causes include it being a representation of stone, not brick. Those tend to be larger and Noch has both in their program.

 

HTH!

 

 

Thank you both for your replies.

 

I should, of course, thought more about what  I was trying to say before I pressed the button.  My apologies.

 

I am modelling in 00 scale. The Bachmann buildings are 00/H0 and the Noch brick card is also 00/H0.

 

I appreciate that brick come in different sizes but the difference is out of this world.

 

Surely one must be wrong?  Size and one half or even twice the size would be OK at a pinch, but this must be four or five times the size.

 

If I were to put the two side by side they would both appear ridiculous.  I really don't want to have to skin the Bachmann buildings with the Noch card if I can help it.  By comparison, the ready built look as if the bricks are N gauge or even smaller.

 

Any ideas or suggestions would be very welcome.  There must be many of you out there who have run into this problem before.

 

Thanks in advance (I hope).

 

Jack

[cal.n]

Which Bachmann buildings do you have?

[Jack O Lantern]

Hi Cal.n

 

I bought the barn from the Pendon range and the rural workers' cottages (I think they are called)

 

Don't know if they are different from the rest, but I would say that they both have bricks which look about the same size and which tally with the brick paper for the Gaugemaster station also.

 

Jack

[edcayton]

See if the shop will swap the Noch stuff for something more suitable.

 

Ed

[Jack O Lantern]

See if the shop will swap the Noch stuff for something more suitable.

 

Ed

 

Thanks Ed.

 

I can try that but I was hoping that he more expert on here might be able to suggest what is more suitable as I have to rely on online purchasing and I am finding that what you see on the screen is not necessarily what you get!

 

Jack

[Tony Davis]

Thanks Ed.

 

I can try that but I was hoping that he more expert on here might be able to suggest what is more suitable as I have to rely on online purchasing and I am finding that what you see on the screen is not necessarily what you get!

 

Jack

If it was bought online then you should be able to return it anyway under the ( I think) distance selling regulations.

[PaulWarb]

Hi

 

Another idea if you want to make scratch built buildings.  Have you discovered Slaters Plasticard sheets of bricks (about 0.5 mm thick)?   You can easily find retailers that stock these (I will suggest some if you struggle - not sure I can advertise on here!!) and see what a wide range there is - could try ebay too. 

 

Wills Kits also make smaller sheets of bricks - their product is a bit thicker (2mm) and more rigid. 

 

You need a sharp scalpel and a metal ruler to cut these sheets and can then glue the bricks to something that will form a rigid wall - like balsa wood. 

[Happy Hippo]

I've just looked at the noch brickwork on the Howard scenic supplies site, and  for each sheet, they give the approximate brick sizes in mm

 

 

NOCH embossed card walls are a photographic reproduction of actual stone walls.

The high contrast of the stones is brought to life by superior printing techniques.

An embossed texture of mortar lines give this card material exceptional realism.

Sheet Size: 32 x 15 cm

Brick Size Approx. 8mm x 2mm

 

However, some of their stonework is also described as Brickwork

 

NOCH embossed card walls are a photographic reproduction of actual stone walls.

The high contrast of the stones is brought to life by superior printing techniques.

An embossed texture of mortar lines give this card material exceptional realism.

Sheet Size: 32 x 15 cm

Brick Size: Average 12mm x 8mm

[Nick Holliday]

I've just looked at the noch brickwork on the Howard scenic supplies site, and  for each sheet, they give the approximate brick sizes in mm

 

 

NOCH embossed card walls are a photographic reproduction of actual stone walls.

The high contrast of the stones is brought to life by superior printing techniques.

An embossed texture of mortar lines give this card material exceptional realism.

Sheet Size: 32 x 15 cm

Brick Size Approx. 8mm x 2mm

 

However, some of their stonework is also described as Brickwork

 

NOCH embossed card walls are a photographic reproduction of actual stone walls.

The high contrast of the stones is brought to life by superior printing techniques.

An embossed texture of mortar lines give this card material exceptional realism.

Sheet Size: 32 x 15 cm

Brick Size: Average 12mm x 8mm

In that case it is no wonder they don't match the Bachmann models.  A 4mm scale (OO) brick would scale roughly 3mm long by 1mm high, so the smaller Noch brick is over twice that size, the larger over 3 times! It looks as if the Noch designer has well and truly mixed up stone work sizes with a brick pattern and produced sheets more relevant to Gauge 1 modellers.  There are several suppliers of printed and/or textured brickwork that are accurate to 4mm.

[ejstubbs]

If it was bought online then you should be able to return it anyway under the ( I think) distance selling regulations.

 

The DSR were replaced a couple of years ago by the Consumer Contracts Regulations.  However, the principles are the same: you have the right to return goods bought online within 14 days of receiving them.

[Jack O Lantern]

Many thanks to all of you for your replies.

 

I appreciate what is said about advertising but if you,Nick, could advise on other manufacturers that would be great.

 

Thanks for the expertise all of you.

 

Regards,

 

Jack

[ianLMS]

Hi Jack - I have used Slaters embossed Plasticard, Evergreen embossed plasticard, Wills plastic (much thicker), Redutex self-adhesive sheets, scribing my own in card/foam-board/plaster rendering and scalescenes printed sheets. Here are my comments on each:

1. Slaters & Evergreen - good scale sized bricks, easy to work with and paint - needs laminating to stronger sub-structure (card, styrene sheets, foam-board). I use Evo-Stock Impact adhesive.

2. Wills Plastic - good range, too much relief for me in 4mm, very thick and strong so no need for sub-structure. glues with super-glue - Allan Downes favourite medium

3. Redutex - very good range, expensive, flexible material and easy to use. edges don't stick down that well and easy to damage. Easy to weather. Not sure on brick size, but stone effect is good.

4. Self-Scribing - very mind numbingly boring tedious task - not for the feint hearted!! difficult to scribe exact square lines. Easy to glue and cut depending on thickness of card/foamboard.

5. Scalescenes - excellent representation, dead easy to work with, highly recommended for beginners or for buildings at the rear of the model scene as relief does not matter too much.

 

If you look at a village in real life, there are always a huge variety of materials used to construct the buildings - brick, stone, flint, chalk, etc all side-by-side. My advice is either use ready made together, then have something like a tree, bushes etc to separate them from the scratchbuilt stuff - then you don't notice the difference. I had ready-to-use buildings (Skaledale) but as my confidence grew in scratchbuilding, I replaced them with ones I made.

 

 

As said before, traditional UK sized bricks are generally the same size.

 

Pictures: Bridge using Redutex Stone over foam-board sub-structure; Station using Slaters Plasticard over 2mm card sub-structure; terraced houses from Scalescenes kit; pub using foam-board "rendered" with PVA/Polyfilla;

[Jack O Lantern]

Hi Ian,

 

Thank you VERY much for the comprehensive reply and for the photographs.

 

When you have no previous experience, it is very easy to get it wrong and, as we are all perfectionists in our own way,it is great to be able to bounce ideas off other, more experienced, modellers

 

Thank you.

 

Jack.

[edcayton]

Hi Jack - I have used Slaters embossed Plasticard, Evergreen embossed plasticard, Wills plastic (much thicker), Redutex self-adhesive sheets, scribing my own in card/foam-board/plaster rendering and scalescenes printed sheets. Here are my comments on each:

1. Slaters & Evergreen - good scale sized bricks, easy to work with and paint - needs laminating to stronger sub-structure (card, styrene sheets, foam-board). I use Evo-Stock Impact adhesive.

2. Wills Plastic - good range, too much relief for me in 4mm, very thick and strong so no need for sub-structure. glues with super-glue - Allan Downes favourite medium

3. Redutex - very good range, expensive, flexible material and easy to use. edges don't stick down that well and easy to damage. Easy to weather. Not sure on brick size, but stone effect is good.

4. Self-Scribing - very mind numbingly boring tedious task - not for the feint hearted!! difficult to scribe exact square lines. Easy to glue and cut depending on thickness of card/foamboard.

5. Scalescenes - excellent representation, dead easy to work with, highly recommended for beginners or for buildings at the rear of the model scene as relief does not matter too much.

 

If you look at a village in real life, there are always a huge variety of materials used to construct the buildings - brick, stone, flint, chalk, etc all side-by-side. My advice is either use ready made together, then have something like a tree, bushes etc to separate them from the scratchbuilt stuff - then you don't notice the difference. I had ready-to-use buildings (Skaledale) but as my confidence grew in scratchbuilding, I replaced them with ones I made.

 

 

As said before, traditional UK sized bricks are generally the same size.

 

Pictures: Bridge using Redutex Stone over foam-board sub-structure; Station using Slaters Plasticard over 2mm card sub-structure; terraced houses from Scalescenes kit; pub using foam-board "rendered" with PVA/Polyfilla;

 

Bit OT but I love that shot of the terraced houses. How have you got that backscene to match so well? Lovely as the cars are, I would suggest that for the period there are too many of them!

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

[ianLMS]

Bit OT but I love that shot of the terraced houses. How have you got that backscene to match so well? Lovely as the cars are, I would suggest that for the period there are too many of them!

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

Thank you - The backscene is 9mm plaster board stuck to the wall with no more nails, and painted with a very pale grey, touched in with darker grey for a stormy type of North West summers day! The hills are just using a mix of greens. I am no artist, so I very much appreciate the comment. The trees/road go up to the edge and just get smaller as they go for some perspective. The church/farm are Scalescenes scaled down to 75% when printed to give 3mm/ft, again adding perspective. I moved the cars there while I was planting the station but they will be distributed across the layout so they don't look too many for the period - also working on a horse/cart and a I have a bicycle or two to place which is more appropriate. 3 expensive motor cars in a 1939 north west village is prob too many!!!! More than likely there would be one owned by the Lord of the Manor and that would be about it until you hit the larger towns/cities.

I have a thread called "Jencaster" with a few more pictures if you are interested in the development of the layout.

[ianLMS]

Hi Ian,

 

Thank you VERY much for the comprehensive reply and for the photographs.

 

When you have no previous experience, it is very easy to get it wrong and, as we are all perfectionists in our own way,it is great to be able to bounce ideas off other, more experienced, modellers

 

Thank you.

 

Jack.

As a beginner, I would highly recommend getting a few downloadable kits from Scalescenes. Very cheap, excellent instructions, full of interior detail and a superb way to learn how to construct the basic buildings. Lots of variety in building types, finishes as well. 1mm/2mm greyboard is cheap on Amazon and I used pritt-stick's and either Evo-Stick Impact or Wilko's general purpose adhesive. I cut using a Stanley knife, and again, 100 blades from Amazon/Ebay are next to nothing. Once you master the art of Scalescenes, progression onto scratchbuilding is so much easier. I used scalescenes for the structure, and then replaced the printed cover sheet with slaters plasticard to give a different look, texture and relief.

[Jack O Lantern]

Ian,

 

Thanks for the latest.

 

Certainly a good idea to start on something simple and better still if it is cheap!

 

Jack

[Gwiwer]

Jack

 

We were all beginners once.  Even the most seasoned professional layout exhibitor, the greatest modellers we know of, those we admire and respect through printed or electronic media, all began somewhere.  Everyone had to learn.  And hands up the person who has not made any mistake (usually innocent, often through lack of knowledge) along the way.

 

RMweb is one of the greatest resources going in terms of help, support, practical assistance and friendship.  We are more than happy to offer help, easy steps, experience and encouragement along the way.  I don't think anyone need apologise for being a beginner nor for asking any question.  If it needs an answer then ask.  Two sizes of brick apparently at complete odds with each other?  Ask.  As you have done and we are all learning as we go by reading and contributing to the topic.

 

I suspect that many bricks modelled for OO are in fact over-scale though have never actually measured them.  Then there are the printed / embossed cards which are typically made by German firms and therefore to HO or 1:87 scale not the 1:76 of OO.  Sometimes you can get away with using the two side by side but not always.  An HO brick will be significantly smaller than a OO brick if both represent the same actual brick to correct scale.  The same is true of people as a good many of our model populations are 1:87 scale Noch and Faller people.  By contrast Bachmann and Hornby 1:76 scale are giants - or at least tall and obese!  There is an extent to which trial and error is your friendly learning curve though how much one can afford to trial (and possibly bin) depends upon individual circumstances.

 

Back to bricks.  I built a Wills kit viaduct which comes with brick-embossed plastic inserts for the arches.  I thought they were wrong.  The bricks stood out too proud of the mortar courses which should be almost but not quite flush in scale.  I could measure the mortar course depth with a feeler gauge and it was a sizeable portion of a millimetre.  The bricks also looked wrong to my eyes though I am no brick-nerd.  I didn't use them.  I looked around for brick-print card and found one by Vollmer which was a decent approximation.  The card was quite thick and again the print din't look quite right.  How picky did I want to be?  I visited a couple of local shops and eventually found another brick-print card by Faller.  This one is far better.  The card is thinner so easier to work with, the colour is a much brighter vermillion rather than dark red of both other options and the printed style included a little uneven-ness in colour and texture.  Superb. In they went and eight years later there they still are.

 

It pays to ask around and it pays to shop around.  We all have our favourite shops for all sorts of reasons but one I find consistently good for stocking the European ranges as well as British is Gaugemaster's own Engine Shed outlet at Ford, West Sussex.  Another which is very useful though beware the potential for import duties is Eurorail Hobbies in Canada who again carry a vast range (and will order anything in the catalogue for you if it's not in stock) but you can end up paying more than you expect if HM decides there is duty payable on your import.

 

Anything else?  Just ask.  And please let us know how you get on.  It took me 35 years from idea to fist construction of a layout for a variety of reasons so you're not alone as a later beginner.

[Jack O Lantern]

Gwiwer,

 

Thanks for the info, the tips and, not least, the encouragement!

 

I guess we are all perfectionists (obsessives?) in our own ways, but I would wager that everyone of us wants to get it as "right" as we can.

 

I am trying to build a group of buildings in close proximity to each other and bought the Bachmann Wansborough barn and Rural Workers' cottages which I am going to team up with a scratch built structure and some figures. (00)

 

I also bought the Gaugemaster Fordhampton station.

 

Having read a blog about improving the station with embossed card I bought two sheets of Noch brick card.

 

If I can get it all to work I attach photos of:

 

A.  Comparison between the Noch card and the brick paper from the Gaugemaster kit 

 

and

 

B  Comparison between the Noch card and the Bachmann barn.

 

I realise that in the real world bricks come in different colours, sizes and even shapes but the difference here seems extreme.

 

I hope that I am not guilty of breaking any rules here by naming names, but I have heard that Redutex is very life like.  My point is - is it in scale or is it like Noch?

 

"Skinning" the barn and the cottages with embossed card would be beyond my skills at least, but I don't want to buy endless makes of card only to find that they are not suitable.

 

Others on this thread have kindly advised on shoppers' rights and returns, but I try to avoid this if at all possible.  

 

Thanks also for some more names. I will go google when I have posted this.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Jack

 

 

[ianLMS]

Hiya Jack - did you get any further with your quest to determine the suitability of the Redutex/Noch brick sizes? Going to a show near you with a trade stand selling Redutex is another good way of determining the size if you wanted to "try before you buy". I was at Warley and different modeling materials were presented and you could have easily compared one with another.