edcayton Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 So nowadays boilers have to be insured and inspected as "pressure vessels", given a certain period of being "in ticket". In the early days lots of boilers exploded with some devastating results. When were the major changes in legislation? I'm really interested in the period between 1948 and 68 (yes-I do know that's not the "end of steam" on BR. Not only VoR loco's but also a number of steam cranes lasted beyond 1968.). Thanks in advance. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2016 ..and train steam heating boilers in Diesels. Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamperman36 Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Just bear in mind that in those days there were far more people and firms qualified to do the boiler inspections so it would have been much easier, now there are only a few firms left who have the qualified staff which makes it harder and much more expensive to get boilers certified. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2016 Didn't BR have its own boiler inspectors? Wasn't this because as a nationalised industry it didn't have any insurance, just met any claims out of its own pocket. BT was the same until it was privatised. Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2016 The answer may lie in the 3.5, 5 and 7.25" gauge live steam loco community. I remember, in the 70s and 80s, there were some mumblings about bureaucracy and boiler certificates. But bear in mind that the model community usually/does lag behind real life but not by much! Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 The answer may lie in the 3.5, 5 and 7.25" gauge live steam loco community. I remember, in the 70s and 80s, there were some mumblings about bureaucracy and boiler certificates. But bear in mind that the model community usually/does lag behind real life but not by much! Kev. A friend of mine (a Chartered Engineer) owns a 1/3 scale traction engine and I was somewhat shocked when he told me how lackadaisical the inspection regimes are (or at least can be) when it comes to model type steam, especially the huge variance in ability of the various "competent persons" and the lack of any real qualifications or experience required for one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 uax6, on 13 Nov 2016 - 18:36, said: Didn't BR have its own boiler inspectors? Wasn't this because as a nationalised industry it didn't have any insurance, just met any claims out of its own pocket. BT was the same until it was privatised. Andy G Yes, and yes. It applied to road vehicle insurance too, to comply with the Road Traffic Act a bond was lodged with one of the insurance companies (Sun Alliance I think) and there was a little certificate in the windscreen to say so in case we ever got a 'producer' from the police. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Yes, and yes. It applied to road vehicle insurance too, to comply with the Road Traffic Act a bond was lodged with one of the insurance companies (Sun Alliance I think) and there was a little certificate in the windscreen to say so in case we ever got a 'producer' from the police. Also Govt. vehicles were exempt. I worked for the Home Office/Directorate of Telecoms, maintaining the Police radio wireless for many years. Our vans carried an exemption disc and had no insurance. A number of times we were pulled over (deliberately!) into roadside vehicle checks, where the experienced copper stepped back and let the rookie coper discover it, whilst we played along with him... Ironically, the Police vehicles had to have tax paid on them. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2016 Stewart, I don't suppose that you happen to have any images of those Crown Exemption discs do you? I could do with one for my GPO Moggy van...... Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 The BR ones were white with very small black lettering, not that that's much help, sorry ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2016 A friend of mine (a Chartered Engineer) owns a 1/3 scale traction engine and I was somewhat shocked when he told me how lackadaisical the inspection regimes are (or at least can be) when it comes to model type steam, especially the huge variance in ability of the various "competent persons" and the lack of any real qualifications or experience required for one. I moved into my current house 27 years ago (!!!!). My next door-but-one-neighbour made his own 3.5" and 10.25" gauge free-lance locos. He was called George and was retired five-ish years then. He, and his wife, departed 20yrs+ ago now, but before he did go he showed me his collection. Fascinating. He was full of stories and anecdotes about his experiences. Building problems/solutions, running sessions etc... One tale centred around when he was testing his latest 3.5" Boiler. Instead of using water - under pressure - he used compressed air. He warned not to do this, and gave examples, but what resulted when the soldered (Silver) joint gave way - it went off like a cannon resulting in a very neat and perfect 3" hole in the side of his shed! Kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2016 Using compressed air isn't much better than steam/water! Less energy but still compressed. water can't be compressed, hence no energy storage. NHS vehicles didn't have tax or insurance either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45125 Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Didn't BR have its own boiler inspectors? Wasn't this because as a nationalised industry it didn't have any insurance, just met any claims out of its own pocket. BT was the same until it was privatised. Andy G Yes, BR did have its own boiler inspectors. I can remember working with one of them when I was an apprentice. Doing inspections on air receivers and steam heat generators with him was quite interesting as he also still did the boiler inspection on preserved steam. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Stewart, I don't suppose that you happen to have any images of those Crown Exemption discs do you? I could do with one for my GPO Moggy van...... Andy G Sorry, personally no I have no pics. However I googled for images, and found this, which from memory was very similar to ours: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crown+exemption+tax+disc+pictures&biw=1440&bih=790&tbm=isch&imgil=J4T-cqFg1TysqM%253A%253BA-mgq9P7bIUdPM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fpicclick.co.uk%25252FWest-Yorkshire-Fire-Service-Exempt-Vehicle-tax-disc-131893064172.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=J4T-cqFg1TysqM%253A%252CA-mgq9P7bIUdPM%252C_&usg=__rHspaOblKVYNVfX8LybmDd6WFtM%3D#imgrc=J4T-cqFg1TysqM%3A (should be the 1st pic, West Yorkshire Fire). Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 The answer may lie in the 3.5, 5 and 7.25" gauge live steam loco community. I remember, in the 70s and 80s, there were some mumblings about bureaucracy and boiler certificates. But bear in mind that the model community usually/does lag behind real life but not by much! Kev. Probably, but also in the 32mm/45mm 16mm/ft narrow gauge community. We have strict instructions, as a member, to ensure we have boiler certificates when opening our layouts to members of the public. Modern live steam (gas or coal fired) locos in this scale operate at between 30 and 45 psi normally, but many can raise up to 60/70 psi if allowed. You can easily lose an eye or worse if the safety valve blows physically off its mounting, or if the boiler itself explodes. The danger occurs particularly if the boiler is allowed to run out of water, which is quite difficult for most modern, factory made products, and these are certified by the manufacturer - you would almost have to do this deliberately as the designs do not allow more gas to be filled than the water tank size which would be needed to burn that amount of gas, and the boilers are designed to resist sudden, catastrophic failure. But many are home made productions (this being originally a home engineer hobby) and need certification if used in public, otherwise our membership insurance is void (which is provided as aprt of our membership fee). We have quite a few members who are qualified to certify boilers these days. I believe the regulations were strengthened about 6/7 years ago, under pressurised vessels legislation, which caused a mild panic within the garden rail community until the regulations were clarified. Thankfully, I have not injured anyone yet, except a cat. Curiosity and all that..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 As some people may know, there's a book entitled 'Locomotive Boiler Explosions' (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Locomotive-Boiler-Explosions-Hewison-Christian-H-New-Book-/121878039762 ), which covers the history of the topic, mostly from an engineering rather than a legal perspective. There are various accident reports of boiler explosions on the Railways Archive website, where they seem to have been taken very seriously. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Me again... If you want a fairly terrifying account of the consequences of poor/negligent boiler maintenance in a preserved loco in the USA, see here: http://www.athra.asn.au/library/Loco_1278_Boiler_Explosion.pdf Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2016 Using compressed air isn't much better than steam/water! Less energy but still compressed. water can't be compressed, hence no energy storage. NHS vehicles didn't have tax or insurance either. That's why testing and verification organisations and bodies generally insist on hydraulic testing and demand pretty robust justification and risk assessment if you want to use compressed gas/air to do a pressure test. If something goes wrong with a hydraulic test it is still hazardous but there is no problem with stored pressure in the way you get with gas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 From memory, during the 1840s, in Manchester. I have a vague recollection that the first boiler insurance body, which in turn gave rise to the first formal regime of testing and certification, started there and then. I will see if I can find the exact facts. Kevin Edit: The Manchester Steam Users Association was founded a bit later than I thought, in 1854, but there are refrerences to the need to formalise testing and certification back at least as far as 1840. http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Manchester_Steam_Users_Association and a very good summary of the early years here https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/download/TheManchester_10249201.pdf Hydraulic testing of pressure vessels seems to have a long history - I've found a reference in 1830 that reads as if it was well understood practice by then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 I think you will find the Model Engineering community would be a bit unsettled if it is queried as to qualifications etc for the testers, most are qualified by long experience as well as standing with Technical qualifications. This is changing fast as some much British manufacturing has closed and we are faced with a new generation that have had no experience with making boilers. The Societies issue full test guides that must be adhered to, and insists on witnesses and full record keeping. Fortunately accidents from boiler explosions are rare, failures do happen, blown tubes or failed fittings happen, mainly due to picking the wrong grade of tubes or using brass for fittings. If you ever get involved with a boiler, however simple, ask for help, there are people who will help out, never test a boiler on air, and never fire up an untested boiler with unknown safety valves. Even a small garden railway boiler can pack a punch on exploding, but normal operation, normal conditions means most are safe and remain so for 16mm etc.Traction engines are a very different kettle altogether, the boiler doubles as the chassis on most and must be tested by different procedures even in model sizes. I do boiler testing myself for smaller sized boilers for 16mm and model boats, but only for club members in strict schemes. I do test larger boilers, I know the regulations etc, but have to have another qualified tester to hand as well. Most Model engineers are very safe, it is the boat community and to some extent the 16mm modellers who will insist that because they have bought a commercial boiler with a RTR engine,they should be ale to use it, that are a bit of a concern. Just because it costs £xxxx it still has to be tested. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2016 I believe that in the early days of preservation there were a few boilers steamed that shouldn't have. I was told recently that the J15 was steamed with several tubes blanked off Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 13, 2016 Something to keep in mind is that although steam died a death in railway use, steam raising boilers are all around us and still being manufactured in large numbers, not to mention pressurised hot water heaters. The ultimate boilers are probably still power station boilers which are often well above 1GWth output but most are much smaller units used for heating. Many ships still carry steam raising boilers for fuel heating etc. And whilst we tend to think about boilers as oil or coal fired units, there are also steam - steam generators and other heat exchangers generating steam and pressure via exchanging heat with other fluids rather than by combusting fuel. There are lots of pressure plant engineers, surveyors and operators in the UK, including design and manufacturing. And boiler rules and codes are still kept up to date. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 13, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2016 I remember the BR Boiler Inspectors coming to check out the compressors and reservoir tanks on the air mains for electro pneumatic point machines back in the 1960s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 At age about 6, I was fascinated to watch two chaps hydraulically testing the big old central heating boiler, which sat in the middle of our school cloakroom, where it's was heat could gently cook our Wellington boots. For some reason, I have a photograph in my head, of them pumping away, and watching the pressure dial on their test-set, with their tools strewn around them. K Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted November 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 14, 2016 Naval boilers and pressure vessels had a regular test and examination regime in place, boilers were every 12 to 14 months, air reservoirs varied depending on the size and type. it is not unusual to plug leaking tubes until a suitable replacement can be sourced and in water tube boilers replacement was deferred until an examination was due, because of the number of tubes that need to be removed to gain access to the leaking one, but it was necessary to check the plugs during a visual inspection and note it on the boiler history card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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