Modern Eras Made Clearer

[newbryford]

But anything after 1923 is modern, isn't it?

 

No. Anything before 1968 is old.......

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[newbryford]

Fair enough. Good point.

 

Although... shouldn't you be calling it "THE modern image" in that case?

 

Jim

 

Been there, discussed that.

 

Hoping that doesn't re-open an outdated can or worms.....

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Orange Cat]

But anything after 1923 is modern, isn't it?

 

Even post-WWI is borderline.

[298]

I think one of the reasons why a manufacturer may not buy into the concept is it gives a clearer reason not to buy something, instead of a vague reason to do so.

 

Even then, there is nothing to indicate the regularly at which a livery might occur, even if it is short lived as modern application methods and a desire to adopt a uniform corporate identity means the transition period can be quite short, or in another case you end up with my pet hate of a diesel depot looking like it is holding an open day because of the number of celebrity locos present.

[coachmann]

I can see the reason for 'eras'. Box openers don't know while railway modellers do the research and know what they want. 

[Guest]

I can see the reason for 'eras'. Box openers don't know ###### while railway modellers do the research and know what they want. 

Nice.

What is it with these constant digs at "box openers"??? Get over it, ffs.

[Zomboid]

I'm a box opener. I like operation more than anything else, not even that bothered about scenics to be totally honest. A Great Northern RS3 on autoracks? Sure, I know it's wrong but I still enjoy running that train.

[Talltim]

US freight stock has specific dates painted on it, yet I've not seen any of the manufacturers mention the dates on the model in the blurb. Even the best manufacturers seem to manage to avoid photographing it. Maybe because it might limit the sales?

[t-b-g]

It seems to me that most attempts to break up railway history into a sequence of eras are based on two factors, company ownership and livery.

 

In past times, it was pretty easy to define an era as it represented a pretty fixed period with a beginning and an end date. So the grouping period from 1923 to 1947 was pretty easy to define. Yet on the LMS there were distinct Fowler, Stanier and Ivatt periods, with quite different liveries and appearance. The LMS people already talk about different periods of carriage design. Going earlier than that is generally known as pre-grouping but that covers everything from the "Rocket" up to Gresley pacifics, which is the time when our railways probably changed most of all.

 

Then you get some periods that can be defined by a livery, such as "blue diesel". The problem nowadays is that the whole railway system is so fragmented and different parts of it change livery and/or owner on a timescale that has no bearing on when other areas of the country change,

 

So on the ECML, there can be pretty well defined periods like the GNER blue or the present Virgin colours  Yet the ECML franchise and liveries haven't changed at the same time as those of other lines. So putting a date range that can cover the whole system is almost impossible, as a start date on one part f the railway system is of no significance elsewhere.

 

If we want to break history up into nice, equal sized segments of time, it was done for us by the invention of the decade, so many modellers refer to their layout being set "in the fifties" but the railways had several major livery changes during that decade.

 

The point I am trying to make is that the history of our railways is one of constant and ongoing change. Sometimes big changes and sometimes smaller ones. Many of the changes only applied to certain parts of the railway. Trying to create artificial time periods, which suit the whole system, is impossible.

 

There seems to be a modern fad for creating nice neat "pigeon holes" for everything. Whether it be a book, a film, music or a model railway. We seem to be obsessed with being able to label it with a one or two word description.

 

For each era we try to define, there are so many possible variations that it tells the person seeing the label nothing worthwhile. If I tell somebody that I model the "pre-grouping period" it tells them nothing other than it is before 1923. If I tell them that I model the Great Central in Nottinghamshire just prior to WW1 it gives a much better idea of what I do.

 

So I prefer to use a company name, a date (which can be approximate) and a geographical area to describe what I do. It is so much more descriptive than "Era 2"" or whatever it has been tagged.

[Dungrange]

If I tell somebody that I model the "pre-grouping period" it tells them nothing other than it is before 1923. If I tell them that I model the Great Central in Nottinghamshire just prior to WW1 it gives a much better idea of what I do.

 

So I prefer to use a company name, a date (which can be approximate) and a geographical area to describe what I do. It is so much more descriptive than "Era 2"" or whatever it has been tagged.

 

I agree that's the best way for modellers to define their interest or explain to others what their railway is meant to represent, but that's not particularly useful when trying to search catalogues or websites such as Hattons or Bachmann's. To make searching for models that may be of interest easier, I think that there is a need to disaggregate the models that are produced by various manufacturers into categories to limit the number of models displayed.  If we had to search by company, local authority area and precise date ranges, then both the websites and the time taken to set up the search would be more complex than simply setting the search parameter to Era 2.  To me, that is the whole point of the era system - to limit search results of present them in something reasonably akin to historical order: not something to say you have an Era 2 layout.

 

Era 1 represents the longest and most varied period of railway history (in terms of technical differences i locomotive design), but that doesn't really matter simply because there are so few models that are suitable for those who model this time frame.  The need to split eras, in particular the modern era is driven by the fact that whilst the railway today is not significantly different from 25 years ago, there have been huge changes in the number of liveries on the real railway and many have been offered as models which means that a current Era 9 search will return many liveries that have long since disappeared.

 

I think many of those who dislike the Era system get a little too hung up on the exact start and end dates - they can only ever be a crude guide and whilst it may not be perfect, I think it would be desirable if all manufacturers / retailers were to use the same categories so that I don't have to look for Era 9 on one retailer's website and Era G or Era XII on another.

[t-b-g]

I agree that's the best way for modellers to define their interest or explain to others what their railway is meant to represent, but that's not particularly useful when trying to search catalogues or websites such as Hattons or Bachmann's. To make searching for models that may be of interest easier, I think that there is a need to disaggregate the models that are produced by various manufacturers into categories to limit the number of models displayed.  If we had to search by company, local authority area and precise date ranges, then both the websites and the time taken to set up the search would be more complex than simply setting the search parameter to Era 2.  To me, that is the whole point of the era system - to limit search results of present them in something reasonably akin to historical order: not something to say you have an Era 2 layout.

 

Era 1 represents the longest and most varied period of railway history (in terms of technical differences i locomotive design), but that doesn't really matter simply because there are so few models that are suitable for those who model this time frame.  The need to split eras, in particular the modern era is driven by the fact that whilst the railway today is not significantly different from 25 years ago, there have been huge changes in the number of liveries on the real railway and many have been offered as models which means that a current Era 9 search will return many liveries that have long since disappeared.

 

I think many of those who dislike the Era system get a little too hung up on the exact start and end dates - they can only ever be a crude guide and whilst it may not be perfect, I think it would be desirable if all manufacturers / retailers were to use the same categories so that I don't have to look for Era 9 on one retailer's website and Era G or Era XII on another.

 

I am no computer/web expert but I have seen websites where searches are easy to operate and much more selective. Have a look at the Wizard models one. You just need some nice easy filters. Putting in a start and finish date and the word "wagon" or the name of a company should work.

 

If a RTR manufacturer produces a particular model of a loco or vehicle that ran in a particular livery or with certain details that make it accurate from, say, 1985 to 1988 then I would prefer to know that rather than a vague "Era 6". People who are not too fussy can run it anyway and those that like to get things right will know in advance that they need to possibly modify the details or livery. 

 

Anybody with any sense will know that liveries didn't change overnight and many people are willing to be flexible but it would be nice to know just what prototype has been modelled in what condition.

 

If we are going to have a vague and arbitrary system of chunks of years, somebody invented one years ago, called a decade. A model may as well be described as 1980s. At least those who don't know about made up eras will have a rough idea what period it is from.

[Talltim]

Green era, Sector era and Privatisation aren't modern image...

Also there had been as much change in the Privatisation era as there were in the three post war Steam eras, why divide them and not privatisation?

[coachmann]

Green era, Sector era and Privatisation aren't modern image...

Also there had been as much change in the Privatisation era as there were in the three post war Steam eras, why divide them and not privatisation?

What part of simplicity do you not understand? 

 

Second thoughts, don't tell me!  I can't be arsed and have deleted my post.

[Dungrange]

We've been through all this before. All it requires is a heading followed by a rider. 

 

Steam Era ~ pre-grouping.

Steam Era ~ pre-war

Steam Era ~ post-war

Steam Era ~ Pre-1956

Steam Era ~ post 1956

Modern Image ~ Green era.

Modern Image ~ Corporate blue.

Modern Image ~ Sector era

Modern Image ~ Privatisation.

 

The knowledgeable know only too well that there is far more to it, but I think we are talking about simplistic marketing here. For those who wish to delve deeper, it's called research. Development depends on how deep one's interest is.

I largely agree apart from the use of that dreaded phrase "Modern Image".  Ideally "Diesel & Electric Era" would be better.  However, that is largely what Bachmann already use, only it's easier to abbreviate to a single number.  It's far quicker to type 9 than "Diesel & Electric Era - Privatisation"

[Talltim]

What part of simplicity do you not understand? 

 

Second thoughts, don't tell me!  I can't be arsed and have deleted my post.

The bit where you made it more complicated by dividing post war steam into 3 eras

[Dungrange]

I am no computer/web expert but I have seen websites where searches are easy to operate and much more selective. Have a look at the Wizard models one. You just need some nice easy filters. Putting in a start and finish date and the word "wagon" or the name of a company should work.

 

If a RTR manufacturer produces a particular model of a loco or vehicle that ran in a particular livery or with certain details that make it accurate from, say, 1985 to 1988 then I would prefer to know that rather than a vague "Era 6". People who are not too fussy can run it anyway and those that like to get things right will know in advance that they need to possibly modify the details or livery. 

 

Anybody with any sense will know that liveries didn't change overnight and many people are willing to be flexible but it would be nice to know just what prototype has been modelled in what condition.

 

If we are going to have a vague and arbitrary system of chunks of years, somebody invented one years ago, called a decade. A model may as well be described as 1980s. At least those who don't know about made up eras will have a rough idea what period it is from.

 

I don't dispute that it can be done and Wizard Models is a good example of a website that can be searched based on date ranges.  However, to make the website work means that the database that sits behind it needs to hold this information for every item of stock sold and that information needs to be accurate.  I think its fair to say that Hatton's clientele are a little different from those who use the Wizard Models website.  Many of Hattons customers probably don't care too much about precise dates, whilst those who visit Wizard Models tend to be those who are looking for assistance in getting something just right for their chosen time period.  I would therefore expect the latter group of customers to be more knowledgeable with regards particular dates.  However the other difference is the number of products sold and the interests of the staff.  Wizard Models is run by a couple of railway models who sell a relatively limited range of products and it will therefore be easier for them to specify the appropriate date ranges for the products that they sell.  Hattons, by contrast, sell many more products, employ many more staff and many of these staff will have no interest in model railways.  Asking them to research the correct start and end dates for each locomotive, coach and wagon livery alongside diecast cars, buses, track components etc is more probably more hassle than it would be worth.

 

Anyone modelling the 1980's will most likely be representing the sectorisation era, which is referred to as "UK rail era 8. BR Sectorisation (1983 - 1994)" on Hattons website.  Personally I think having 1983-1994 as a period makes more sense than 1980-1989 simply because each year is a demarcation, which neither 1980 nor 1989 are.  

 

I think some people just don't like having a number attached to a date range.

[t-b-g]

I don't dispute that it can be done and Wizard Models is a good example of a website that can be searched based on date ranges.  However, to make the website work means that the database that sits behind it needs to hold this information for every item of stock sold and that information needs to be accurate.  I think its fair to say that Hatton's clientele are a little different from those who use the Wizard Models website.  Many of Hattons customers probably don't care too much about precise dates, whilst those who visit Wizard Models tend to be those who are looking for assistance in getting something just right for their chosen time period.  I would therefore expect the latter group of customers to be more knowledgeable with regards particular dates.  However the other difference is the number of products sold and the interests of the staff.  Wizard Models is run by a couple of railway models who sell a relatively limited range of products and it will therefore be easier for them to specify the appropriate date ranges for the products that they sell.  Hattons, by contrast, sell many more products, employ many more staff and many of these staff will have no interest in model railways.  Asking them to research the correct start and end dates for each locomotive, coach and wagon livery alongside diecast cars, buses, track components etc is more probably more hassle than it would be worth.

 

Anyone modelling the 1980's will most likely be representing the sectorisation era, which is referred to as "UK rail era 8. BR Sectorisation (1983 - 1994)" on Hattons website.  Personally I think having 1983-1994 as a period makes more sense than 1980-1989 simply because each year is a demarcation, which neither 1980 nor 1989 are.  

 

I think some people just don't like having a number attached to a date range.

 

Wizard models is run by one person and has a product range that is probably in excess of all the RTR manufacturers put together. It includes products from virtually every aspect of railways and in several scales and periods. If the staff at Hattons are not capable of working out what date a model represents, how would they know what "era" it is from. If the manufacturers can tell retailers what "era" a model belongs to, surely they can issue dates just as easily. Presumably the RTR manufacturers have done a bit of research before issuing a model. It would be easy for them to include "Represents the prototype as running from 1986 - 1992" on the box.

[Dungrange]

If the staff at Hattons are not capable of working out what date a model represents, how would they know what "era" it is from.

 

If the manufacturers can tell retailers what "era" a model belongs to, surely they can issue dates just as easily. Presumably the RTR manufacturers have done a bit of research before issuing a model. It would be easy for them to include "Represents the prototype as running from 1986 - 1992" on the box.

 

That's part of the problem, even with a limited number of eras to choose from, information is not always correct.  As an example, this Hornby Railroad TTA in BP green livery is described on the Hattons website as UK rail era 7. BR Corporate Blue. Post -TOPS: 1972-1982.  However, in 'Era 7' all Class A tanks carried a light grey livery.  The rules on colour schemes for tank wagons was not relaxed until the late 1980's, so a model that is categorised by Hattons as being suitable for 1972-1982 is in fact not suited to this period at all, but would be more appropriate on a layout from c 1989 to c 2004.  That is the later part of Era 8 and the early part of Era 9.

 

However, the problem of labeling models with the wrong era is not limited to Hattons.  A look at the Bachmann website indicates that they have two BP green tank wagons in their current range.  Both are missing the BP logo, which was removed from the majority of wagons around 2004, yet these are marked as Era 7/8 for the TTA and Era 8 for the TEA.  Both should actually be Era 9 with a start date of around 2004 and I think an end date of around 2010, which is when VTG acquired the wagon fleet from BP Oils.  If you want an earlier period, you probably need to add the BP logo and if you want a later period, probably change the TOPS panel.  If manufacturers and retailers can't get eras correct, what chance is there for them to get an accurate date range?

 

Yes, I agree that it would be nice if models were to be labelled with "Represents the prototype as running from 1986 - 1992" on the box, but I don't think that will ever happen.  Ultimately any labeling, whether that be an era or a date range is no substitute for a bit of research by the prospective buyer. 

[newbryford]

 

 

Yes, I agree that it would be nice if models were to be labelled with "Represents the prototype as running from 1986 - 1992" on the box, but I don't think that will ever happen.  

 

Hornby have tried to do this - for example the Arriva blue 67002.

(a shorthand version of what's on the box after a brief fleet history)

The locomotive represented in this pack: 67002 Outshopped in  Feb2000 in EWS livery, received the name "Special Delivery" in Aug 2000, re-liveried in 2011 into Arriva blue

 

Cheers,

Mick

[royaloak]

Green era, Sector era and Privatisation aren't modern image...

Also there had been as much change in the Privatisation era as there were in the three post war Steam eras, why divide them and not privatisation?

I agree, every knows that BR blue is modern image, everything after is plastic! 

 

TBH calling set periods of time an era is just an easy way to define the railways between big changes and shouldnt be taken too rigidly, personally I like it because I model (well I will when I finish the room) mainly the 1980s and so the current eras suit me when searching.

 

I think the proposed idea makes a lot of sense.

[rob D2]

I can see the reason for 'eras'. Box openers don't know ###### while railway modellers do the research and know what they want.

 

 

Eloquent in the extreme. We must prostrate ourselves before your greatness in being, quite literally, not a box opener.

 

I think, if you actually read hattons gen, that they are trying to break up privatisation into decent bite sized lumps.

After all, If you are new to the hobby or say a dad trying to expand a trainset it is rather confusing.

 

I know you can't mix a loadhaul 37 with an Hitachi 800 , but the privatisation period is now 22 years long. That's longer than the transition period, that's arguably longer than the BR blue period as well.

 

Therefore it deserves some subdivision now.

[t-b-g]

I still find it hard to reconcile the fact that the last 22 years is regarded as a long period and requires dividing up, yet the period from the start of our railways up to 1923, which is around 100 years and saw the railways change massively, is lumped together as one "era". There have been a number of locos produced in pre-grouping liveries. Why shouldn't people care if they appeared in traffic at the same time just as much as they care about class 67s?

 

If somebody on here had suggested that the period from 1825 up to 1960 ( last main line steam loco build date)  had been divided up into loads of eras but that everything since 1960 was just lumped together as "modern" or "diesel/electric" there would have been a great outcry.

 

Now if this is a discussion about Hattons marketing policy, rather than one about railway history, then as far as I am concerned I am happy for them to describe models however they want and if it helps people buy the right thing, all well and good. I do have a bit of an issue if people want to start bringing Hatton's marketing policy into general use as a means of dividing up railway history generally, as seems to be the case.

 

There are already items on the Hattons website that are shown as being suitable for 1923 - 1947 that are in liveries that would probably have appeared around 1946/7. So it seems that it is OK for a steam modeller to be misled by 23 years but not a diesel/electric modeller.

 

If people want to break railway history into eras, it seems highly biased to break the modern period into lots of small segments and lump the previous 150 years into "grouping" and "pre-grouping". 

 

Why the double standards? 

[The Black Hat]

I posted most of the below in a thread that was running on a similar topic about a year ago;

 

While privitisation can be divided the way in which it happened as not helped really. Companies do overlap as Franchise lengths were not all set the same. Really you want to be grouping them into rough periods where again there is some overlap. The main companies are the ones that lead the way in which the areas are divided. The main way apart from franchieses are the obvious livery changes that occured within a specific time frame. As a result I have included a these too. 

 

I would summise that in fact your entering Period 3 of privitsation. To explain this I will use franchises but these are mostly up north as I am familiar with them. 

 

The first being: (1997 to 2007)

 

GNER, Regional Railways which then became Arriva Trains Northern. Virgin Cross Country, Virgin West Coast. Midland Mainline teal and green.

Nat Ex Scotrail. Start of Grand Central. Central Trains. Great Western, FGW (Fag packet green). 

EWS. Freightliner. Start of GBRf. DRS plain blue. 

Beginning of WCRC. Fragonset. Rail Track. 

Start of Northern rail, Network Rail. 

Introduction of class 66, 67. 

 

 

The Second being: (2008 to 2015)

 

Corporate First Group - First Scotrail, First Transpennine Express, First Great Western.

Also; National Express, East Coast. Arriva Cross Country. Grand Central orange and black. Northern Rail, East Midlands Trains.

End of Fragonset/Merlin rail.  Advenza/Cotswold rail. 

Network Rail. Yellow on everything...

Beginning of DB Shenker. Freightliner powerhaul. DRS compass blue and green. Introduction of class 70. Wrexham and Shropshire. 

GBRf expands traction - inc 73s, more 66s. 20s. 

Start of colas. ie appearing on DRS 57s. Colas class 56/66/70. 

Introduction of class 68

 

The third being; (2016 onwards)

 

Return of GWR. Virgin Trains East Coast. Scotrail Saltaire livery, introduction of class 88. 

Change to DB/ DB Cargo

Northern Belle to GBRf

Caledonian Sleeper franchise - use of class 90/86/87

Transpennine Franchise change - Return to locomotive haulage on TPE

Change of GBRf minus Eurotunnel logo?

Colas expansion - 60s, 37. 

 

That would be my approach to it all.... Hope thats of help or interest. 

[The Black Hat]

Personally I think the dividing of era's has as much to do with the amount of produce that is made for the hobby as much as the total amount of engines used during a time period.

 

Yes 1825 to 1900 ish might be period 1, but there are not many engines made for that period for the hobby. Yes there are a number of kit built machines but these in volume are a faction of what exists in the wider hobby.

 

Having Pre-war, grouping, etc all makes sense. They are clearly defined by both liveries, geographical area but also match a volume that the hobby produces. The Transition period of early/late crest is also split because this in recent years has been the most popular period to model.

 

Diesel periods again make sense, but this in turn matches the models produce for a period and the amount of models made that fit that era.

 

Privitisation has had many models made because the current scene has been of operational interest to many. However, as this is constantly chaning models made a few years ago now no longer fit with the current scene. As a result the way its described above makes a lot of sense to me, if linked to volume of products made.

[coachmann]

Eras are supposed to help people who "dont know". If they dont know, what the fekc are they going to make of eras?

 

Uncle Joe) I want something for my lads model railway.

 

Shopman)  What era sir? 

 

Uncle Joe) How do you mean?

 

Shopman) Well there is GNER, Regional Railways which then became Arriva Trains Northern. Virgin Cross Country, Virgin West Coast. Midland Mainline teal and green, Nat Ex Scotrail. Start of Grand Central. Central Trains. Great Western, FGW (Fag packet green),  EWS. Freightliner. Start of GBRf. DRS plain blue,  beginning of WCRC. Fragonset. Rail Track, start of Northern rail, Network Rail, Introduction of class 66, 67; Corporate First Group - First Scotrail, First Transpennine Express, First Great Western, also; National Express, East Coast. Arriva Cross Country. Grand Central orange and black. Northern Rail, East Midlands Trains, end of Fragonset/Merlin rail.  Advenza/Cotswold rail, Network Rail. Yellow on everything... beginning of DB Shenker. Freightliner powerhaul. DRS compass blue and green. Introduction of class 70. Wrexham and Shropshire, GBRf expands traction - inc 73s, more 66s. 20s., start of colas. ie appearing on DRS 57s. Colas class 56/66/70, 

Introduction of class 68, return of GWR. Virgin Trains East Coast. Scotrail Saltaire livery, introduction of class 88, Change to DB/ DB Cargo, Northern Belle to GBRf,...........draw breath...........Caledonian Sleeper franchise - use of class 90/86/87, Transpennine Franchise change - Return to locomotive haulage on TPE, change of GBRf minus Eurotunnel logo and Colas expansion - 60s, 37. 

 

Uncle Joe)  Er..... well he's got  Edward, Emily, Gordon, Bert, Mike, Henry, James, Percy, Rex, Ryan, Skiff, Sailor John, Annie, Iron John, Ashima, Axel of Belgium, Iron Bert, Bertie, Bash, Bell and Bill, Butch, Carlos of Mexico, Bulgy, Billy, Colin, Daisy, Charlie, Dennis, Dart, Diesel, Douglas, Donald, Duncan, Freddie, Hank, Hector, Jack, Ivan of Russia, Luke, Madge, Murdock, Molly, Norman and Thomas................ Have you got Olivier the Excavator....?