South Wales Valleys in the 50s

[Welchester]

I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think clerestory lights were painted over sometime in the First World War and never reinstated.

[The Johnster]

Now, that is a possibility I hadn't considered; thank you Your Grace.  Thinking about it, these clerestory lights were probably never cleaned between shoppings anyway and a coach in workman's service retaining GW livery in the early 50s has to be pretty filthy, so it may make little difference.  But I will glaze them anyway, and heavily weather them, employing my usual trick on the main windows of weathering and then wiping off with a bit of tissue; this leaves the impression of a dirty window hurriedly and haphazardly cleaned with a damp rag probably pretty dirty itself, or by a passenger with a glove.  Interior misting with wipe marks may well feature as well.

[The Johnster]

Taking a tea break from the clerestory; matters have progressed as far as glazing and I am half way through installing Ratio seating.  I glazed the clerestory windows and found that there was a gap at the bottom of their frame, which has now been filled in with a piece of painted wood, actually cut from the same source as my putative footsteps, Sainsbury's cafe coffee stirrers (also avaialble at Wetherspoons pubs and motorway services). 

 

These are a resource I cannot recommend highly enough; I just keep finding more uses for them on the layout.  Packing pieces, the cradles for my cable drums in an open wagon, barrow crossing, the goods yard wooden fence, various disposable pickers, scrapers, and small piece holders, handy straight edge when the proper one is on the other side of the room; and the price is right!

 

Photos of the Glyncorrwg miner's train which is the inspiration for mine, though I do not propel, seem to show the locos carrying a class H or K lamp, which seems wrong, but consistent over several different photos with different stock featuring different locos, so I am assuming it must have been covered under some local or Sectional Appendix instruction.  I will copy, citing photographic evidence as authority unless some one here of greater erudition tells me not to (Stationmaster to the thread, please, paging Stationmaster...).

[The Johnster]

The Clerestory is pretty much finished for the time being, although new bogies are still needed.  Here it is sitting on it's ersatz modified Triang bogies, with the (real wood, from trees) coffee stirrer footboards.  I am happy to put up with it in this form for now, a dirty, ill-kempt, not particularly loved coach eking out it's last days on a workman's train.  It still needs cut down staple lamp brackets fitting and the solebar looks too brown to me.

 

6167 has been fettled up and some of the brightwork (wheel rims, centres, handrail) blacked out; she is now running sweetly enough but the very satisfying class 37 growl her predecessor possessed is now a buzz saw noise.  I will live with this so long as she runs well, until the Dapol one is available.  I am giving thought to the fact that I have effectively 2 bodies in different liveries for this loco, both incorrectly numbered if I want to represent Tondu's only 5101, 4145, delivered new to the shed in 1946 so still carrying G W R Egyptian Serif unlined green livery for my period.  The old body is in this condition and carries the number 4159, built 1947 so the livery is correct.

 

I am hoping to find a suitable lined black candidate among South Walian 5101s, or actually any 5101s, but there is a temptation to use the old body, which has been worked up and carries better detail, and justify her as a Rule 1 transferee to Tondu in view of the increased demand on that shed that the Cwmdimbath branch would have represented.  The problem with swapping bodies is the cylinder lining on 6167, wrong for any other livery.  You might think that somebody happy to run a semi-ficticious clerestory and a Triang Hornby 2721 with a fictional chassis wouldn't be too bothered, but I am.  

 

Current thinking is a compromise; leave the cylinder lining on one side and turn the loco round for the different bodies.  South Wales locos almost always worked chimney first up the valley and bunker first down, in order to keep a higher level of boiler water at the fusible plug on the gradients, but of course locos got turned around in service and this was not a 100% unbreakable rule.

 

I would be grateful to hear from anybody with information about 5101s in lined black BR mixed traffic livery; if you can turn one up with 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering on the tanks you will have made my day!

Edited May 12, 2018 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

Rail UK have turned up 4 5101s built in late 1948 that must have carried the 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' sans serif livery, 4165-9, and four that must have carried the earlier Egyptian Serif GW style 'BRITISH RAILWAYS', 4160-4; there is photographic evidence of 4162 at Barry new in this livery.  Of course, I am extrapolating from the 'built' dates which I assume are when the locos were handed over to traffic after running in.

 

Rail UK cannot help me with the lining issue.  I want to replicate as many of these transition and early BR liveries as possible on Cwmdimbath; they are part of my fascination with the period.

[Northmoor]

Have you referred to either of these sources:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

http://www.ianrathbonemodelpainting.co.uk/br-western-region-locomotive-liveries.php

 

Between them they seem pretty comprehensive.

 

Rob

[The Johnster]

Thank you, Rob; I think we have a winner if I can accept a transferee from 84E Tyseley under the authority of Rule 1 (I can, I can!), 4166 fits the bill of a 5101 built new in October 1948 in lined black.  The sans serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering is appropriate to that date, as I believe would be red backed number plates.  6167 will be rebranded as 4166, originally intended for the Birminham division but allocated at the last minute to 86F Tondu.

 

I now need to source plates for 4145 and 4166, and the latter will then be my only non-Tondu loco out of a fleet of 7, not quite the 10% I wanted to work to but not bad considering.  Future plans are for 9681 in the plain black livery with this lettering, another new 1948 delivery., and I now need a loco with the GW style Egyptian Serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on the tanks, but let's walk before we run!  The Baccy 94xx, when it turns up, will have to be in unlined black unicycling lion with black backed numberplates.

 

To sum up, for my own benefit as much as anything else as I get easily confused at my age:-

2761 - GW unlined black Caerphilly Works 1943-8 austerity livery, G W R in 'grotesgue' script, a sans serif style (photographic evidence 1950 Swindon Works post withdrawal 31/3/50).

4145 (currently incorrectly numbered as 4159) - GW 1946 unlined green with G W R on tank sides in Egyptian serif.

4166 - BR 1948 lined black with BRITISH RAILWAYS in sans serif and red backed numberplates.

4214 - BR unlined black unicycling lion.

4581 - BR 1956 lined passenger green with unicycling lion.

5756 - BR unlined black unicycling lion.

56xx (currently incorrectly numbered as 6604) - BR 1958 lined passenger green with ferret and dartboard.

6408 - BR unlined black unicycling lion.

5756 - BR ditto.

94xx (no ID yet) - BR unlined back possibly ferret and dartboard, definitely no red backed number plates

9681 (as yet not sourced) - BR unlined black with BRITISH RAILWAYS in GW 1920s style Egyptian serif.

 

An eventual stud of 10 locos (two large prairie bodies will share an early Mainline chassis until one is replaced by Dapol)  for 7 trains and the odd pigeon special.  Correct numberplates have yet to be sourced for both large prairie bodies, the 56xx, and probably the Baccy 94xx and Dapol 5101, but I might get lucky with the manufacturers plates being suitable.  6167, as she currently is, is the only loco with printed numbers, and all others are etched brass with the exception of 2761 which has moulded plastic.  All except 4166 are proper Tondu locos, and 4166 is a special case on Rule 1 livery grounds within my 10% intended limit.

 

A further 56xx may appear at some time, perhaps in a BR unlined green livery with one of the crests.  And then there are variations of painted or polished safety valve covers and copper caps to consider...

 

We have a plan, one so crazy it might just work!

Edited May 12, 2018 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

Of course, I am expecting (bloody well demanding would be nearer the mark!) that the Dapol large prairie will outclass mine in terms of chassis and body.  It makes sense to make this one 4145, and 4166 will be given an occasional outing on a pigeon special as a semi-retired model.  Perhaps the old chassis that was once under 4159 can be resurrected as a kitbash 3100, with smaller driving wheels, cylinders and slide bars from the Kitmaster plastic kit, and the no.4 boiler from a Kitmaster City of Truro, another potential pigeon special loco.  But I need to concentrate on locos I need before considering this sort of exotica...

 

Tondu had 3100 to work the daily Porthcawl-Swansea commuter; Canton had 3105 for the Cardiff-Porthcawl service.  The Porthcawl branch's vicious curves meant more Tondu exotica; there were 3 44xx small prairies, at least one of which had the BR lined black livery.  Stop it, Johnster!

[Happy Hippo]

Thank you, Rob; I think we have a winner if I can accept a transferee from 84E Tyseley under the authority of Rule 1 (I can, I can!), 4166 fits the bill of a 5101 built new in October 1948 in lined black.  The sans serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering is appropriate to that date, as I believe would be red backed number plates.  6167 will be rebranded as 4166, originally intended for the Birminham division but allocated at the last minute to 86F Tondu.

 

I now need to source plates for 4145 and 4166, and the latter will then be my only non-Tondu loco out of a fleet of 7, not quite the 10% I wanted to work to but not bad considering.  Future plans are for 9681 in the plain black livery with this lettering, another new 1948 delivery., and I now need a loco with the GW style Egyptian Serif 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on the tanks, but let's walk before we run!  The Baccy 94xx, when it turns up, will have to be in unlined black unicycling lion with black backed numberplates.

 

To sum up, for my own benefit as much as anything else as I get easily confused at my age:-

2761 - GW unlined black Caerphilly Works 1943-8 austerity livery, G W R in 'grotesgue' script, a sans serif style (photographic evidence 1950 Swindon Works post withdrawal 31/3/50).

4145 (currently incorrectly numbered as 4159) - GW 1946 unlined green with G W R on tank sides in Egyptian serif.

4166 - BR 1948 lined black with BRITISH RAILWAYS in sans serif and red backed numberplates.

4214 - BR unlined black unicycling lion.

4581 - BR 1956 lined passenger green with unicycling lion.

5756 - BR unlined black unicycling lion.

56xx (currently incorrectly numbered as 6604) - BR 1958 lined passenger green with ferret and dartboard.

6408 - BR unlined black unicycling lion.

5756 - BR ditto.

94xx (no ID yet) - BR unlined back possibly ferret and dartboard, definitely no red backed number plates

9681 (as yet not sourced) - BR unlined black with BRITISH RAILWAYS in GW 1920s style Egyptian serif.

 

An eventual stud of 10 locos (two large prairie bodies will share an early Mainline chassis until one is replaced by Dapol)  for 7 trains and the odd pigeon special.  Correct numberplates have yet to be sourced for both large prairie bodies, the 56xx, and probably the Baccy 94xx and Dapol 5101, but I might get lucky with the manufacturers plates being suitable.  6167, as she currently is, is the only loco with printed numbers, and all others are etched brass with the exception of 2761 which has moulded plastic.  All except 4166 are proper Tondu locos, and 4166 is a special case on Rule 1 livery grounds within my 10% intended limit.

 

A further 56xx may appear at some time, perhaps in a BR unlined green livery with one of the crests.  And then there are variations of painted or polished safety valve covers and copper caps to consider...

 

We have a plan, one so crazy it might just work!

What about 4404 and 4408 which were long term residents at Tondu?

 

You've got to love the babies of the baby prairies.

 

 

 

Yopou've got to have 4404 or 4408

[The Johnster]

Maybe one day.  4404/8, pretty little things, were used specifically, and exclusively AFAIK, on the Porthcawl branch, because of extremely sharp curvature on it that all other locos were restricted to 5mph on; even these were restricted to 15mph.  The locos were regularly turned to even tyre wear. I am not aware of them used north of Tondu, there are no photos of them at Abergwynfi, which Cwmdimbath is loosely based on, or at Ogmore Vale, Nantymoel, or Gilfach Goch.  

 

But mention of them has reminded me that I need 4557 as well, and there are no excuses here; RTR is available and there is work on the layout for her.  Ok, 11 locos then.  O, well, if I must...

[Northmoor]

But mention of them has reminded me that I need 4557 as well, and there are no excuses here; RTR is available and there is work on the layout for her.  Ok, 11 locos then.  O, well, if I must...

4557 must have been re-allocated later, because it was a regular on the Cardigan branch in the 1950s, along with 4558 and 4559.  I have seen photos of two of them double-heading the freight and passing the third on the passenger.

[The Johnster]

Allocated to Tondu in 1948, withdrawn from Neyland 30/9/62 according to Rail UK, which makes sense for a Cardigan branch loco.  

[The Johnster]

4581 runs in with a lunchtime service from Bridgend, while the new girl 6167 (for now) stands over on the loop with the stock of the 13.20 workman's to Tremains ROF (the real train ran from Abergwynfi morning and evening; rule 1 allows for a lunchtime service as well).  6167 clearly needs a bit of working up, but the blackened handrail and wheel rims have already made an improvement, and she looks good with crimson liveried stock.

 

The A30 trailers on the Bridgend are both new Hornbys, the crimson/cream coach bought at Lord and Butler's earlier in the week at the old stock price of £29.95; an identical box behind was priced at £32.95.  It has modern NEM couplers, an improvement on the other one, but retains the Airfix bogies with brake blocks out of line with the wheels.  The coupled distance between the trailers is far too great, and I will be carrying out experiments to see how much I can reduce it without inducing buffer lock on the no.4 reverse curve of the auto road in the fiddle yard.  A further stub off this is proposed to accommodate a single trailer and 6408.

 

Out of shot parked on the grass near the shunter's cabin is another new acquistion, a blue Austin A55 belonging to the Leading Railman (Cwmdimbath is not important enough for a stationmaster, he's at Tondu).  There are also some Ratio telegraph poles, much nicer than the previous Peco toys, and a fogman with a hut and brazier; these are Peco of course.  The fogman, unusually for a model railway figure, is dressed appropriately for South Wales, and hunched appropriately as well... these will be appearing on the layout over the next couple of weeks after a coat of toning down.

[The Johnster]

I've just noticed that 6167s cab roof shutter looks as if it's open; it isn't, and in any case that would be the wrong half...

[The Johnster]

6167 (for now, as above it is to become 4166 in BRITISH RAILWAYS lined livery) awaits the off with the afternoon shift for the ROF at Tremains, the auto having departed and the train having been shunted to the platform road.  The brake test has been done and we are waiting time.

 

4214 has just arrived from Tondu with a train of coal MTs; the fireman is off to the box with the token and, once the the ROF workman's has gone, the brake van and loco will perform a run around shunt ready for dropping down the quarter mile bank to the colliery; it will be the signalman's decision as to whether she has time to clear inside the ground frame before the next auto is due into the section.  MTs are always in short supply and high demand, and he is under a little pressure; let's hope he makes the right decision; this is the sort of thing that can have knock on effects for hours on a single track branch as busy as this...

 

4214's driver has done very well to keep the safety valves from lifting after blasting up the bank and then having to shut off at the top!  There's nowt wrong with a couple of big black tank engines, though, is there?  It has clouded over a bit but a dying shaft of sunlight has caught the large prairie, the station building, and the mountainside behind.

 

The Leading Railman's new A55 from Classix is in shot this time; it needs the shine toning down a bit!

 

New telegraph poles if there's time tomoz.

[The Johnster]

The driver of 4214 made the decision for him in the end, by saying he wanted to take water.  He is held for the auto in consequence, and here she is bursting out from beneath the scenic break bridge and then passing 4214 waiting in the loop for the road down the bank, which will be given as soon as the auto's fireman has given the signalman the electric token to release the 42xx and her train.  The NCB can live with getting their empties 20 minutes late and the timetable is safe until the next thing that threatens it.

 

The coarseness and narrowness of Peco Streamline 00 track shows up horribly in the second photo, and I am considering ripping it all up and replacing it with chaired code 75, which might not look quite as crude.

 

I have just realised that 6408's front vacuum bag is missing, another job for the pending tray...

[31A]

6167 (for now, as above it is to become 4166 in BRITISH RAILWAYS lined livery) awaits the off with the afternoon shift for the ROF at Tremains, the auto having departed and the train having been shunted to the platform road.  The brake test has been done and we are waiting time.

 

4214 has just arrived from Tondu with a train of coal MTs; the fireman is off to the box with the token and, once the the ROF workman's has gone, the brake van and loco will perform a run around shunt ready for dropping down the quarter mile bank to the colliery; it will be the signalman's decision as to whether she has time to clear inside the ground frame before the next auto is due into the section.  MTs are always in short supply and high demand, and he is under a little pressure; let's hope he makes the right decision; this is the sort of thing that can have knock on effects for hours on a single track branch as busy as this...

 

4214's driver has done very well to keep the safety valves from lifting after blasting up the bank and then having to shut off at the top!  There's nowt wrong with a couple of big black tank engines, though, is there?  It has clouded over a bit but a dying shaft of sunlight has caught the large prairie, the station building, and the mountainside behind.

 

The Leading Railman's new A55 from Classix is in shot this time; it needs the shine toning down a bit!

 

New telegraph poles if there's time tomoz.

 

 

The Leading Railman must be doing well on OT!

[The Johnster]

Yes, he is, isn't he.  He is the highest paid railwayman at Cwmdimbath, and cannot really afford a new A55, and the car here is an A70 Dorset.  It may have to be re-assigned, or perhaps he has married well.  Can't imagine a lot of scope for overtime at Cwmdimbath, but he obviously doesn't live in the village, or anywhere between it and Bridgend, if he needs to drive to work.

 

But the car is so evocative of the 50s, and I couldn't resist it, though I nearly went for a Ford Consul, which would have cost about the same at the time; rejected that as being a bit too far towards the end of my period.  It actually isn't a brilliant model on close examination, the silver paint for the brightwork and headlights not really cutting it at all.

[The Johnster]

The auto has departed and the MTs have been taken down the bank to the colliery, and it is now about 40 minutes later as 4214 brings the LDs up to the loop to run around before the run back to Tondu.  The photographer is standing on the embankment leading to the Remploy bridge, and the train is lurching and squealing into the loop, a tricky bit of driving as steam has to be shut off at exactly the right point to leave sufficient momentum to drag the better part of 300 tons over the top of the bank, but not too late to bring the train to a smooth and controlled stand at the stop board at the other end of the loop; the guard has to be on the ball in the van as well!  11 wagons, some of them 21 tonners with long wheelbases, and a van, do not leave much for error and most drivers err on the side of caution, so sometimes even big engines like the 42xx stall here and can have trouble getting under way again on wet days.

 

Sharp eyed followers of this saga might spot that the telegraph poles have made a re-appearance in the form of Ratio ones that have replaced the previous rather crude Peco Scalescenes.  Better ones are available, I know, but these Ratio poles look the part and will do for the foreseeable future.  I very much doubt if I'll ever put the wires up, but you never know! 

 

Once the running around moves are complete and the LDs are ready for the off, it will be time for the afternoon Remploy clearance.  The factory specialises in work for the still new NHS, refurbishing wheelchairs and other mobility aids such as crutches and even wooden legs and arms.  These are dispatched in NPCCS or at least XP stock to run in parcels trains, as the need for the products is often urgent, and nationwide.  This is usually hauled by a 5101 or 56xx, but 57xx are not unknown with the job.  Any urgent traffic from the goods siding can be taken with this train if the vehicle is XP rated, but permission must be sought from Control, as extra moves are required at Bridgend.

 

When this train has done it's stuff, it will almost be time for the evening rush hour to get under way; auto from Bridgend, miner's workmans, and ROF workman's in fairly rapid procession, and then there is another 'as required' (meaning, if I feel like it) colliery clearance before the box switches out and the branch settles into an evening of occasional one engine in steam autos.  Last train on the real Abergwynfi branch arrived at five to midnight, and the last move, ecs to Tondu was at 00.05 (or so it says in the 1960 WTT; truth is more likely a blast off down the valley as soon as the last passenger is off at about 23.55 and 10 seconds for as early a finish as possible).  Cwmdimbath is based on Abergwynfi, so the last train runs at a similar time; such provision of service in a small and remote valley is unimaginable nowadays!

 

The 'as required' late colliery clearance can,  at Control's behest, be used for pit prop or other traffic to the colliery, and as the NCB are in the process of building a pithead baths, building materials and the like comes in by rail with this path, though sometimes the daily pickup is used.  Such imaginary traffic flows are very useful for ad hoc workings to suit my mood!

[Northmoor]

The Clerestory is pretty much finished for the time being, although new bogies are still needed.  Here it is sitting on it's ersatz modified Triang bogies, with the (real wood, from trees) coffee stirrer footboards.  I am happy to put up with it in this form for now, a dirty, ill-kempt, not particularly loved coach eking out it's last days on a workman's train.  It still needs cut down staple lamp brackets fitting and the solebar looks too brown to me.

I'm really enjoying the scene you are setting in these latest updates, please keep them coming.

 

If it wasn't for the couplings and possibly the buffers, this is an impressive disguise of the Tri-ang Clerestory.  Which just shows that a realistic (i.e care-worn) paintjob and some subtle bogie mods can transform a coach into a useful vehicle which can be created for perhaps 10% of the price of its new equivalent.

[The Johnster]

Thank you for this very positive comment, Northmoor; you are very kind to an old drunk...

 

I am particularly glad that my 'erstatz' working up of the miner's clerestory has attracted your approbation.  The buffers will eventually be replaced, and lamp brackets provided, but I am 'getting away with' the underframe, which is the original Triang 'clip it to the bottom of the coach' one, and looks pretty much like guesswork on their part.  They've had a go at the gas cylinders, though, the main fault with these being the solid moulded brackets.  

 

Cost; x1 s/h Triang shortie clerestory Brake 3rd at Bristol show = £11, which seems to be about the market for it.

          x1 pair Dean 8'6" bogies with footboards, 24/7 developments stand at same show = £7.50 (not even used yet)

          x4 footboards cut from Sainsbury's cafe coffee stirrers which happen to look about the right thickness = £0.00 (picked up from free supply; I don't count the cost of the coffee I had with my panini).

          x1 Ratio seating = £4.50 I think

         Allowance for paint, glue, 'new' wheels from stock, etc = say 50p if we're being generous. 

 

Total = £23.50, against between £40-£60 typical for modern RTR bogie coach, about half to a third the cost, but certainly a worthwhile saving for a poor pensioner (cue violins).  Had a current version been available I would of course have bought one, as it would have been much better (not that the Triang was that bad for it's time), and I could have mentally offset the £23.50 this project cost against it.  We still need new buffers, of course...

 

And, if I've encouraged anyone else to have a go at something similar with a cheapo secondhand guinea pig, that is wealth beyond pearls!  Plus, I've had a good time doing the project, and found it satisfying.  I likes a bit of modelling, me, though my main aim is to provide realistic (ish) stock to run through realistic (ish) scenery on a realistic (ish) railway that is not a model, but a small railway serving the mineral, goods, and passenger needs of an imaginary South Wales mining village in a real place in the 1950s.  

 

My main focus is on daily operation of this railway to a timetable and the 1955 Rule Book, and the imagined and sometimes real problems my 4mm railwaymen have to deal with in order to maintain the service, but I still enjoy the modelling!

Edited May 18, 2018 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

The Remploy clearance arrives, rolling in past the waiting loaded coal which will now have the road as soon as the ceremonies of the Holy Staff have been performed in the signal box, and comes to a stand in the platform road.  More telegraph poles appear, and the Austin has decided it doesn't belong to the station leading railman at all; it is the property of a manager at the ROF who commutes 1st class on the B set.  He leaves the Austin here having driven down from a hill farm owned by his wife's family; money goes to money, don't it?

 

4166 is still not correctly numbered, and may not be for a while, but her identity is beginning to change; the BRITISH RAILWAYS transfers have appeared on the side of the tanks.  More needs to be done, and the most glaring at the moment is those buffer beams; too bright and where are the drawhooks?  Then some cab glazing, proper coal, and overall weathering; we are postulating an 1948 loco about 4 or 5 years old and not especially well looked after, Tondu's go to spare Martini anytime anyplace anywhere engine along with 4145.  The same chassis will serve for both, which means that the left hand cylinder cover has had it's red lining blacked out.  The loco thus has to face this way in order to show red lining with this livery and and none with 4145's G W R initials livery, but I could also use the dodge to model 4166 from the other side in plain black BR livery...

 

It means I have to explain why a loco allocated to a roundhouse shed has been sent into traffic facing the wrong way; well, it's my train set!

 

Photos present the wrong way around as well; same excuse!

[The Johnster]

Actually they have presented the right way around; oh, well...

[The Johnster]

Now, something that should have been obvious for ages has just occurred to me about the new big prairie.  The cylinder cover lining is orange, correct for a BR lined green livery loco, not a lined black one which should have twin red lining.  Now, this means that I must rethink the dual personality idea for 4166; if I want lined black livery (I do, I do), I must do a bit more to the engine, including red lining on the boiler bands, the leading one and the one at the tank fronts.  That will be the end of any dual identity with one side of the loco carrying plain black livery, and the use of this chassis for 4145.

 

Thinking at the moment is to abandon the dead prairie body for now, and wait for the Dapol model to come out, then present it as 4145.  Back to the drawing board...

[The Johnster]

OTOH, the red boiler band/cylinder cover lining on LNWR/BR mixed traiffic livery locos was usually invisible except on a very clean engine, and 4166 is to be fairly dirty when I've finished with her.  No decision will be made yet!