Cleaners on BR WR

[nicktamarensis]

Hello,

I don't remember cleaners being around much after '63 - at least not in the London division sheds of WR.

Does anyone have any info on when the breed vanished from the WR scene?  Worcester's Castles always seemed to be clean almost to the end but that was the exception I think.

Thanks,

Nick.

[The Stationmaster]

Hello,

I don't remember cleaners being around much after '63 - at least not in the London division sheds of WR.

Does anyone have any info on when the breed vanished from the WR scene?  Worcester's Castles always seemed to be clean almost to the end but that was the exception I think.

Thanks,

Nick.

 

There were definitely Cleaners In The Line of Promotion about on the London Division later than  than 1963 and that was still the case in 1967 but they were only recruited in very small numbers and they equally definitely did not do any loco cleaning as that was very firmly a labouring job by then.  However recruitment was seriously curtailed as dieselisation approached due to considerable numbers of Firemen becoming surplus.

[nicktamarensis]

Thanks very much for the info. They must have been a committed lot at Worcester!

Nick.

[Pobrien]

In the early sixties "celebrity" engines were often kept in good external condition.

 

6011 was one of the last five kings in service when photographed at OOC in September 1962.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5869882650/in/photolist-iw3gHP-fLCk1Q-9WGFBh

 

Engines for special workings also received special cleaning treatment.

 

Jubilee 45682 receives intense attention at Bristol Barrow Road in March 1962.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/29212529581/in/photolist-QieTuM-LvpRi8-DHkQfu-DHkQg1-zkV59h-tQtoFt-tQtoD4-tQtoHc-tQtoGk-tQtoEM-tQtoHH-rUMvFN-rUMvJ3-gMBL3T-g3Eg4J-fc7Ers-dcHqG4-9MrerT-9Mu3iE-99rnNs

[The Johnster]

AFAIK the 'cleaner' and 'passed cleaner' grades were replaced by the 'traction trainee', I think as part of the 1969 single manning agreement which did away with firemen and introduced 'secondmen' and 'passed secondmen', later 'driver's assistants' and 'assistant drivers' respectively.  Still paying attention at the back...

[nicktamarensis]

Thanks Johnster,

That's me in the front row mate!

Nick.

[The Johnster]

Thanks Johnster,

That's me in the front row mate!

Nick.

 

There was a thing called the 'Footplate Line of Promotion' which had existed long before I worked on the railway (1970s) and persisted after I left, which went, originally, cleaner-passed cleaner (had passed out on basic rules and regs and was considered capable of firing under a driver's instruction)-fireman (familiar with rule 55 and similar)-passed fireman (with road knowledge and capable of driving on his own without supervision)-driver.  This sometimes took many years to complete, drivers' positions being filled by the principle of dead men's shoes, a position only becoming vacant when a driver retired, died, or left the job for some other reason.  Only men in the Footplate Line of Promotion could apply for footplate jobs, and it was a 'closed shop' in that respect, so even if you were, say, a guard or senior shunter, if you wanted to go on the footplate you had to start from scratch as a cleaner and accept the cut in pay; you also lost your seniority, a vital asset when you had built it up in the world of dead men's shoes.  It didn't work the other way around, footplatemen could apply for any railway job advertised that they were qualified for, keeping their seniority.

 

Footplatemen had to undergo a more stringent medical and eye test than non-footplate operating grades, which were in Traffic (guards, shunters etc) or S & T (signalmen).  They considered themselves a cut above the rest of us, and the pay, while still not good by the standards of the post war world, reflected it.  Of course, one's career on the footplate could be advanced by moving to a depot where there was a shortage of staff, so that for instance many firemen from South Wales depots moved to the likes of Banbury or Westbury during the war, which increased traffic at those locations very considerably, so that they were able to move almost immediately into passed fireman posts and rapidly became drivers, often having to wait 20 years or so until they could move back to South Wales and keep their grades.  Another way of getting a driver's job quickly was to apply for a 'motorman' position on the Southern Region, which was always short of staff (still is) on the London commuter network.

 

It was a good system if you could put up with Dead Men's Shoes, which became an increasing problem in the late 50s and throughout the 60s against a background of declining traffic, depot closures, and Beeching, not to mention the attraction of well paid, clean, regular shift or day work in better conditions in factories.  Men learned their trade on the job, which didn't mean then what it does now (being thrown in the deep and getting on with it) but, as cleaners, became familiar with every part of a loco and learned how to light and prepare a fire, as passed cleaners getting a bit of experience with running, as firemen becoming more and more competent, and getting the chance to handle the loco under the driver's supervision, then as passed firemen of course actually driving and taking the responsibility themselves.  Even when they had become drivers, the 'link' system, which ultimately depended on seniority and those dead men for vacancies to come up, ensured that by the time they got to passenger or express work, they were very experienced and seasoned old hands who knew the job backwards.

 

Of course, in 1968 the last standard gauge steam work on BR finished, and there was little point in there being a grade of firemen.  What were they going to do, shovel the diesel into the cylinder heads, or stand on top and shovel the sparks down from the 25kv wires?  In 1969, there was a major shift in Footplate employment terms and conditions agreed (with some reluctance) by the unions known as the Single Manning Agreement, a major downgrading of both the necessity for and status of the firing grades.  Trains could now be worked by one footplateman, the driver, unless they were untimetabled special workings, had steam heating to be looked after, involved the driver being scheduled to be on the footplate for more than 5 hours continually without a 20 minute break, or other particular reason to have 2 men on the footplate.  The principle was that two men of what were now called the 'Traincrew' grades, which included the guard, were on the train at all times and the guard now booked on at the loco depot and, if the job was a single manned one, acted as the secondman to take the loco off the shed and pick up it's train.  He could do this for a distance of up to 15 miles from the depot, and over any distance returning to the depot.

 

The guard acting secondman was supposed to ride with the driver in the front cab when he was acting as secondman, and then in the brake van, or in the rear cab of the loco in the case of a fully fitted train, when the train was coupled; in practice we mostly rode with the driver on fully fitted trains.

 

AFAIK, and I would regard Stationmaster Mike as the authority here, it was at this time that the footplate grades were re-organised, cleaner and passed cleaner being replaced by a new grade of 'traction trainee', who became a secondman when he passed out on rules and regualtions.  He could then apply for passed secondman posts when they became available, and, when he had learned and signed for his roads, was allowed to drive over them unsupervised as 'acting driver', for which I believe he was paid an allowance.

 

At some time in the early 70s, and I cannot remember exactly when because it is a long time ago, my brain is made of swiss cheese, and thing fall out through the holes, the system was re-organised again, the secondman and passed secondman grades being replaced by driver's assistant and assistant driver; I may be wrong in my vague memory that this was something to do with the introduction of High Speed Trains and the requirement for two men able to drive and with route knowledge being required when the train was travelling in excess of 110mph.  Since I have left the railway, the whole system has changed, with most freight trains operated by a driver only, and AFAIK drivers are trained in driving schools, using simulators, rather than 'on the job' in the traditional way.  Driver's assistants and assistant drivers were just confusing, especially when an assistant driver required a driver's assistant!

Edited January 21, 2017 by The Johnster

[Rugd1022]

New drivers are still trained 'on the job', they have a mentor driver allocated to them for a given number of hours driving tuition (this is hours with the wheels turning, not hours in the cab as such and the number of hours required differs from company to company). Simulators are also involved but they are more useful for putting the trainees through rules and regs situations than actual driving.

[coachmann]

Re footplate men being a cut-above because of the stringent eye-test, the drivers I worked with generally had a dislike of guards because, according to them, they got paid more than us. This was in 1960. I didn't check it out. Rule 55 was drummed into us at Bolton MPD before the examination to become Passed Cleaners. I never cleaned another engine after passing out except voluntarily........... I cleaned a Lanky 'A' class one night just for something to do!

Edited January 22, 2017 by coachmann

[The Stationmaster]

New drivers are still trained 'on the job', they have a mentor driver allocated to them for a given number of hours driving tuition (this is hours with the wheels turning, not hours in the cab as such and the number of hours required differs from company to company). Simulators are also involved but they are more useful for putting the trainees through rules and regs situations than actual driving.

 

I had a ride behind one of them yesterday,  Easy to work out - two men in the cab of the HST, something of a hash when stopping at Reading (about a coach length and a bit too far down the platform, very cautious approach to Swindon, same dropping down towards Wootton Bassett, very careful approach to a restrictive aspect between Bristol parkway and Patchway (far more so than normal) but definitely much more confident running into Newport and Cardiff. 

 

Incidentally for those of more youthful years the Manning Agreement which remained in place for many years during and after the dieselisation period was the 1957 Agreement which was the one that basically extended single manning to turns worked by mainline locos and set most of the PT&R (Promotion, Transfer and Redundancy) arrangements for those displaced by single manning resulting in such interesting things as 'Starred Firemen' (Later Starred Driver's Assts) who were specially protected  by that Agreement.  Some things changed a little in the following 20 years - e.g names for the former Firemen job but the basic protection remained under the Traincrew concept although that changed some manning conditions for trains (but not driving cabs).

 

Moving around to 'get your job' (mainly as a Driver) became increasingly common although many men had moved earlier as 'the Johnster' has noted to depots which were short-handed and t often helped their seniority but the really big change on the Western came with HSTs and the agreement (under some pressure from the staff side) to double-man them with two Drivers  plus other effects from introducing them.  For example when they were put on the West of England the Drivers' seniority dates and Exeter and Penzance shot forward, especially at Penzance where the date moved nearly 20 years overnight and various First Preference Drivers suddenly found themselves moving back to Cornwall at two weeks notice.

[Fat Controller]

When my father started work in 1926, a neighbour asked if he'd be interested in a job at Landore (GWR). He was initially interested, until he discovered he could be waiting for 20 or more years to get on the footplate. In comparison, after a seven-year Indentured Apprenticeship at RTB, he was passed out as a Fitter/Machinist, and on top whack.

Forward into the mid-1960s. My old boss started as a Cleaner at Tunbridge Wells West. In just over a year, he was a Passed Cleaner, allowed to fire main line workings; they were so short-staffed, it was common for him to be working with a Passed Fireman. With a situation like that, you can see why only essential cleaning was being carried out- there was no-one to do it.

[Phil Bullock]

And even Worcester gave up cleaning eventually.....

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/worcestershrubhillrnp.html

 

May 64 was probably a watershed ... once the Castles had been prepped for the Ian Allen special

 

Phil

[nicktamarensis]

Thanks guys for all the info.  Most interesting.

Thanks also Phil for the picture link.  I'm sure you're right about Worcester.

Nick.

[The Johnster]

New drivers are still trained 'on the job', they have a mentor driver allocated to them for a given number of hours driving tuition (this is hours with the wheels turning, not hours in the cab as such and the number of hours required differs from company to company). Simulators are also involved but they are more useful for putting the trainees through rules and regs situations than actual driving.

 

Glad to hear it. I had not though of simulators in terms of rules and regs training, but clearly they have a huge role in this, and are the ideal tool for it.

[The Johnster]

I had a ride behind one of them yesterday,  Easy to work out - two men in the cab of the HST, something of a hash when stopping at Reading (about a coach length and a bit too far down the platform, very cautious approach to Swindon, same dropping down towards Wootton Bassett, very careful approach to a restrictive aspect between Bristol parkway and Patchway (far more so than normal) but definitely much more confident running into Newport and Cardiff. 

 

Incidentally for those of more youthful years the Manning Agreement which remained in place for many years during and after the dieselisation period was the 1957 Agreement which was the one that basically extended single manning to turns worked by mainline locos and set most of the PT&R (Promotion, Transfer and Redundancy) arrangements for those displaced by single manning resulting in such interesting things as 'Starred Firemen' (Later Starred Driver's Assts) who were specially protected  by that Agreement.  Some things changed a little in the following 20 years - e.g names for the former Firemen job but the basic protection remained under the Traincrew concept although that changed some manning conditions for trains (but not driving cabs).

 

Moving around to 'get your job' (mainly as a Driver) became increasingly common although many men had moved earlier as 'the Johnster' has noted to depots which were short-handed and t often helped their seniority but the really big change on the Western came with HSTs and the agreement (under some pressure from the staff side) to double-man them with two Drivers  plus other effects from introducing them.  For example when they were put on the West of England the Drivers' seniority dates and Exeter and Penzance shot forward, especially at Penzance where the date moved nearly 20 years overnight and various First Preference Drivers suddenly found themselves moving back to Cornwall at two weeks notice.

I did not know that the Manning Agreement went back to 1957.  Of course, there were single manned driving jobs before 1969 and indeed before 1957, as 'Motormen', driving electric and later diesel multiple units were always single manned, presumably by men who had come up through the footplate grades like any other drivers, and diesel shunting locos were single manned as far back as I remember as well.

 

So, to answer Nick's original question about cleaners at Worcester, they were still there but not allowed time to do any cleaning towards the end of steam, being too busy lighting fires, and going out on passed cleaner jobs as new staffing levels dropped and recruitment dried up.  BR were reluctant to take on new loco grade staff when they had surpluses at a time when steam was on it's way out and a third of the number of locos would be needed to do the work when the diesels were introduced, at a time when the work was disappearing all around you anyway.  

 

Fat Controller's father probably meant 20 years before he got a driving job as a passed fireman at Landore in 1926; he'd have been on the footplate shovelling coal far earlier than that!  The attraction of railway work was never that it paid well (it didn't) or that conditions were good (they weren't), or that the hours were sociable (couldn't have been less so) but it was considered steady reliable work, a job for life, with better promotion prospects than many back in the '20s.  The attraction of footplate work was always the status, and the pull of being your own man, out on the road in charge of things and not 'stuck in some factory'.  In South Wales, almost anything was better than the mines.

 

All that finished in the decade following the Modernisation Plan in 1955, and Beeching put the final nail in the coffin.  Not just loco and shed work virtually dried up for the best part of 20 years (I was one of the first intake of freight guard 'traincrew' off the street at Canton in 1970), but countless small stations and goods yards closed and the big goods depots lost work to the expanding road haulage industry which was enjoying a boom due to the opening of motorways.  Traffic re-organisation and 'rationalisation' soon became bywords for close, lift, and sell off the land as the railway shrank in front of our eyes in the quest for efficiency.  

[The Stationmaster]

If he'd joined in 1926 it was literally 'dead men's shoes' as far as promotion was concerned in many railway grades including the footplate although on the GWR being In The Line of Promotion (for footplate work) literally meant that Cleaners could at one time be sent to the next available vacamcy that matched their Seniority Date.  One old chap I chatted to had started as a Cleaner at Westbourne Park but was sent to Tyseley when a fireman's vacancy occurred which matched his seniority and only got back (to Old Oak by then)  few years later.

 

Where there were cutbacks and recession - e.g. South Wales in the later 1920s and 1930s he cud well have been sent elsewhere or put back on the street and of course if he had joined as a Junior it was Great western practice to automatically dismiss all juniors as soon as they became eligible for an adult pay rate - I knew men at Old Oak who had joined there as Lad Cleaners and had been dismissed and told to reapply as soon as they reached Adult Age (I think it was 18 then but am not certain on that).

 

Seniority Dates on the footplate were very awkward things - I remember coming across men in Scotland in 1969 who were Secondmen but in their 50s and one even reckoned he would probably retire as a Secondman.  Until the arrival of HSTs on the West of England c1979/80 the Driver's Seniority date at Penzance was somewhere in the late 1940s, and suddenly moved forward to the early 1960s when extra jobs were created.  Things were undoubtedly better under the BR PT&R for staff In The Footplate Line of Promotion because vacancies were on an 'all line' basis which made quicker promotion possible for anyone prepared to move to a grotty depot (in terms of the type of work) in order to get their date and then go back to their original depot on a First Preference move.

[Fat Controller]

'Dead-mens shoes' pretty well sums up what dad said about it. There was a school-friend of my mothers who could only get on the footplate by moving from Pembrey to Wells- when that job finished, because of the branch closing, he decided to get back to Wales, but the only post he could get was as a porter at Llanelli. The general impression I got was that, either you moved around a lot, or you worked in the London area, or were based at Swindon Works.

[The Johnster]

Dead Mens Shoes right enough, the system that prevailed throughout the railway and, AFAIK, always had, though it was particularly pernicious in the case of the footplate grades because they were a separate entity; 'Traffic' grades had a much larger pool of posts to apply for.  If a post was unfilled, the most senior man at a location would simply be put into it whether he liked it or not, and it was in this way that in 1977 I was made a passenger guard and, preferring freight work, left the railway.  Passenger work in the bottom link at Canton meant Valleys work, which was all very early morning starts of around 03.30-05.00 or very late finishes around midnight, and I was a young lad who wanted a social life, getting drunk and dancing with girls!

 

Seniority was all important, although you could study in your own time and at your own expense to apply for managerial 'staff' posts requiring qualifications, as an outside applicant of course!  Seniority determined your position in the links as well, but there was a little more leeway here; a link position that had become vacant as a result of trickle down because a top link man had retired or died might not be applied for by the most senior applicant available for it, if for instance it involved more afternoon or evening work than he wanted so as to be able to spend some time with his family; a junior single man might jump at the chance!  Links ensured that the better jobs at better times with better bonus by and large went to the senior men; with money as well as status involved, they were guarded jealously and vigorously!

[nicktamarensis]

Many, many thanks for the additional information, gentlemen.

An ex-fireman of my acquaintance actually left BR because he could no longer work with steam and couldn't face the prospect of the 'brave new world' offered by, as he put it, "the shiny but soul-less boxes".

In preference, he re-employed himself at a local brewery and found work on, yes, you can probably guess it - the steam boilers the company used!

Nick.

[The Stationmaster]

Dead Mens Shoes right enough, the system that prevailed throughout the railway and, AFAIK, always had, though it was particularly pernicious in the case of the footplate grades because they were a separate entity; 'Traffic' grades had a much larger pool of posts to apply for.  If a post was unfilled, the most senior man at a location would simply be put into it whether he liked it or not, and it was in this way that in 1977 I was made a passenger guard and, preferring freight work, left the railway.  Passenger work in the bottom link at Canton meant Valleys work, which was all very early morning starts of around 03.30-05.00 or very late finishes around midnight, and I was a young lad who wanted a social life, getting drunk and dancing with girls!

 

Seniority was all important, although you could study in your own time and at your own expense to apply for managerial 'staff' posts requiring qualifications, as an outside applicant of course!  Seniority determined your position in the links as well, but there was a little more leeway here; a link position that had become vacant as a result of trickle down because a top link man had retired or died might not be applied for by the most senior applicant available for it, if for instance it involved more afternoon or evening work than he wanted so as to be able to spend some time with his family; a junior single man might jump at the chance!  Links ensured that the better jobs at better times with better bonus by and large went to the senior men; with money as well as status involved, they were guarded jealously and vigorously!

 

No need for qualifications for applying for management posts except for the engineering disciplines required relevant technical qualifications.  When I think back to the situation in South Wales in the early 1970s the Area Managers I definitely know something about had backgrounds as follows -

 

Several fairly definitely originally clerical staff, one definitely a former Goods Guard who had presumably previously been a Shunter (as that was the Promotion diagram for Goods Guard), one had definitely been a C&W (axlebox) Greaser in his first railway job, two had started as (engine) Cleaners and had both made it to Driver, another previous AMhad been an Eastleigh works apprentice and so on and my AM in a later job had started as a GWR Marine Engineering apprentice and had moved to a railway shore job.  And I'm fairly sure that out of that lot none had progressed beyond secondary education apart from night school for the engineering apprentices and several had left school at the age of 15.  Asst Am's were probaby an equally varied mix although quite a high [roprtion were former Station Masters who'd finished up in the jobs after redundancy although there several former Signalmen and no doubt some others.

 

The big problem in the 1970s was recruiting Guards and it became increasingly difficult to get people who were prepared to work and the stuff the Labour Exchanges sent was usually hopeless.  when I moved back to England in the mid 1970s one of my colleagues had actually been reduced to recruiting among ex-prisoners as they were let out of prison (we happened to have good contact with that prison as one of our staff was a Visiting Magistrate there and knew any likely candidates).   One big reason for going over to driver Only operation was the difficulty in recruiting Guards and the very high drop-out rates on training courses, or more correctly when the course ended and thh shifts started.

[The Johnster]

No need for qualifications for applying for management posts except for the engineering disciplines required relevant technical qualifications.  When I think back to the situation in South Wales in the early 1970s the Area Managers I definitely know something about had backgrounds as follows -

 

Several fairly definitely originally clerical staff, one definitely a former Goods Guard who had presumably previously been a Shunter (as that was the Promotion diagram for Goods Guard), one had definitely been a C&W (axlebox) Greaser in his first railway job, two had started as (engine) Cleaners and had both made it to Driver, another previous AMhad been an Eastleigh works apprentice and so on and my AM in a later job had started as a GWR Marine Engineering apprentice and had moved to a railway shore job.  And I'm fairly sure that out of that lot none had progressed beyond secondary education apart from night school for the engineering apprentices and several had left school at the age of 15.  Asst Am's were probaby an equally varied mix although quite a high [roprtion were former Station Masters who'd finished up in the jobs after redundancy although there several former Signalmen and no doubt some others.

 

The big problem in the 1970s was recruiting Guards and it became increasingly difficult to get people who were prepared to work and the stuff the Labour Exchanges sent was usually hopeless.  when I moved back to England in the mid 1970s one of my colleagues had actually been reduced to recruiting among ex-prisoners as they were let out of prison (we happened to have good contact with that prison as one of our staff was a Visiting Magistrate there and knew any likely candidates).   One big reason for going over to driver Only operation was the difficulty in recruiting Guards and the very high drop-out rates on training courses, or more correctly when the course ended and thh shifts started.

 

Yes, of course you are right about qualifications, although it was still a method of getting on to 'staff', many of those posts were filled from the ranks and you could apply for them, but again IIRC on the basis of seniority.  Recruiting of guards was a major issue in those days when, if you didn't like a job, you could walk out of it in the morning and be working somewhere else by tea time, and of my intake, I think 2 dozen of us from around the area, only about 8 remained a year later.  If you didn't have some sort of interest in the job there was little to keep you; a future full of dead men's shoes to fill, appalling conditions, the contempt (in some cases, though by no means all) of the people you were working with for you, not brilliant pay, and highly questionable job security.  I remember having difficulty explaining to friends why a job required me to book on at 02.26 in the morning; if outsiders ever thought that freight trains ran mostly at night they assumed it was on a 'night shift' that started at 22.00 and finished at 06.00 like a factory.

 

The Railway was in a bit of a cleft stick, not being able to afford competitive wages and not being able to improve conditions either (brake vans in the 70s were not fit for animals to ride in), but it was a cleft stick of it's own making when it failed to improve wages and conditions in the 20s when it was still making money, couldn't in the 30s because of the Depression, had no time in the 40s because there was a war on, and was starved of cash by governments as a nationalised concern.  It made up the shortfall with overtime, rest day working, and bonus schemes (which unfairly advantaged main line men like myself), which were not efficient ways of spending resources in the long term and was not sustainable.  In 1977 I wanted very badly to stay on the railway because I loved it, even with it's faults, but I wasn't going to sacrifice any other enjoyment I might be getting out of life when I was young, free, and single in order to satisfy the demand for valleys guards, a job I regarded as bus conducting and not proper railway work.  The continual very early starts and unsocial finishes on a job I didn't like was soul destroying and I had come to the point where I couldn't continue; the Railway lost a lot like me who put a few years in and did our best, as well as the early quitters that it could have done without anyway.

 

Bill Griffiths, the TCM at Canton who you probably remember, tried to persuade me that if I stuck it out for a few more years I'd be able to get back into freight work in some form, or even get a staff post, but he rightly predicted that the freight guard job was doomed; you didn't need a crystal ball to see that in 1977.  With the benefit of hindsight I should perhaps have taken his advice, but my life went down a different path in the actual event.

Edited January 25, 2017 by The Johnster

[Stodge]

I was  cleaner in 1955, and am trying to remember what my starting wages were then. Does anyone have any idea?

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Stodge said:

I was  cleaner in 1955, and am trying to remember what my starting wages were then. Does anyone have any idea?

I can't find any original information at all but the Traction Traiinees rate was increased to £33.35 per week in 1975.   But there were substantial inflationary wage increases around the early 1970s which probably doubled many rates from what they had been in the early 1960s.  for example I started in late 1966 on a salaried staff rate of £9/15/0 weekly and that rate was up to probably something near the high £20s by 1975/76 (alas I can't find the actual rate for then).  So ireckon in 1955 it can't have been more than around £2/10/0 per week at the very most (and probably less for any Cleaners on Junior rates)

[Stodge]

Thanks for your reply.

Another former Driver said that his starting wage in 1962 as an Engine Cleaner was 97 shillings a week (£4-17s-00d) or (£4.85 in decimal), So maybe when I started in 1955 it was even less than that.