Dapol Black Label - Erratic Electrical problem

[creilly81]

Hi all,

I've been having this on-going problem regarding my 2 Dapol Black Label A4's.

Both run excellently and the sounds, function and smoke are all a class above what I've experienced to date for the scale.

I have the Hornby Elite system running software version 1.41.

However, when operating my other loco's on the same track (Hornby mainly, with Loksound v4 chips fitted) my Dapol Mallard particularly, switches itself on (as in the sound) all by itself.
I've emailed Dapol and got a response back this morning from technical that said they were unable to replicate the problem their end, and there is a an issue with the Hornby Elite system.

It's strange because I bought Dapol's Bittern a few weeks before Mallard and I first noticed the issue when running that on my test layout. I was asked by Dapol technical to set CV29 to 2, i.e turning DC running off to see if it helps cure the problem
and although Bittern does appear better, it still tends to follow this trend from time to time. Mallard however switches on every time another loco is operated, even Bittern from the same manufacturer!

I've amended CV's 1, 3, 4, 29, 161 and 220 on the black label models, nothing that should warrant such erratic behaviour. I've also conducted a master reset on both models setting 08 to CV8.

As above, I'm using the Hornby Elite, and software is version 1.41. Does anyone else have any of these models and/or running with a Hornby DCC system and have you experienced similar issues?
It's got to the point now that if I don't want Mallard or Bittern to be in operation, I have to remove them from the layout until needed, as precaution otherwise they can switch themselves on.

Any thoughts?

[Red Baron]

I cured all my erratic problems when moving from an Elite to NCE PowerCabs.

[smokebox]

The Elite firmware version 1.41 is well out of date. Updating to the latest version, 1.43, may solve your problem.

[RAF96]

Strange that a reputable manufacturer like Dapol should suggest that the NMRA compliant and warranted Elite is at fault and not their very complex loco with all sorts of bells, whistles and smoke, etc.

Edit: Also given the wiring and pcb component bodges on their new Class 68 as reported in the DCC Sound forum.

 

Is their decoder and its installation NMRA/NEM warranted I wonder. Which decoder is it anyhow.

 

Hornby go to great pains at each Elite firmware update to cater for the nuances of other peoples decoders in attempt to get them to work better with their controllers. Some decoders are known to work with some controllers (not just Hornby) in one chassis but not in a different chassis of the same brand. This cross brand incompatability is often seen, especially with non compliant kit.

[creilly81]

Hi all,

 

Ok an update.

 

I've upgraded my Elite to version 1.43 successfully, however the problem with the black label locos switching on when another loco is operate still remains.

I have 2 black Label locos and they even do it when 1 or the other are switched on and operated.

 

I think it's safe to rule out a problem with the Elite.... ive never experience any erratic running or problems with any other loco's up to buying the 2 black Label locos. Very strange.

 

Can the fault lie with both locos instead? Seems odd the exact same problem characteristics are evident in both locos not just 1.

Would you suggest it's a fault within the decoder settings themselves rather than it actually being the decoder that's faulty as such?

[RAF96]

How is your track wired. Is it a bus system with parallel or twisted bus wires and do you have any res/cap filters installed.

 

It could be electromagnetic intereference cross bus causing the problem.

 

I did read a while back on one of the forums that someone had a problem with one of his locos but only when another loco was within 'spitting' distance, so apparently the effect can be local.

 

Can you rig a separate test track to check the affected locos and maybe eliminate offending loco or main track effects, etc.

 

All a bit vague I know but clutching at straws to help.

Rob

[richard brown]

Just a thought but are the black label loco pulling to much power for the dcc system

[creilly81]

How is your track wired. Is it a bus system with parallel or twisted bus wires and do you have any res/cap filters installed.

 

It could be electromagnetic intereference cross bus causing the problem.

 

I did read a while back on one of the forums that someone had a problem with one of his locos but only when another loco was within 'spitting' distance, so apparently the effect can be local.

 

Can you rig a separate test track to check the affected locos and maybe eliminate offending loco or main track effects, etc.

 

All a bit vague I know but clutching at straws to help.

Rob

Hi Rob,

 

Well, I have an end to end layout on a window seal at present with 4 parallel operating lines that are all electrically live as the points are electrofrog.

 

I did test Bittern about 6 weeks ago on 1 big basic loop around my kitchen and dining room and it still suffered from the same problem.

The 2 loco was quite a way apart from it, still in a siding but with just the standard sound on. Shunting it up and down the siding caused Bittern to operate even though it was half way round the loop in the kitchen, switched off and stationary at the time.

 

It's actually how I noticed it in the first place a couple of months back.

It doesn't seem to matter what layout design I operate, the characteristics of both my black label

Locos are the same. They switch on when the other is operated.

 

I'm honestly stumped. The only possibility is trying a different controller. I also have a Hornby Select which I'll give a go.

I'm struggling to point the finger at the Elite though especially as it's pretty robust and NRMA compliant.

It does t make any sense that this could be the culprit especially given that before I purchased the black label loco's it's never given me any trouble.

Other loco's still operate as they should even now, it's just the black label ones I'm having an issue with.

[Red Baron]

Hi Rob,

 

Well, I have an end to end layout on a window seal at present with 4 parallel operating lines that are all electrically live as the points are electrofrog.

 

I did test Bittern about 6 weeks ago on 1 big basic loop around my kitchen and dining room and it still suffered from the same problem.

The 2 loco was quite a way apart from it, still in a siding but with just the standard sound on. Shunting it up and down the siding caused Bittern to operate even though it was half way round the loop in the kitchen, switched off and stationary at the time.

 

It's actually how I noticed it in the first place a couple of months back.

It doesn't seem to matter what layout design I operate, the characteristics of both my black label

Locos are the same. They switch on when the other is operated.

 

I'm honestly stumped. The only possibility is trying a different controller. I also have a Hornby Select which I'll give a go.

I'm struggling to point the finger at the Elite though especially as it's pretty robust and NRMA compliant.

It does t make any sense that this could be the culprit especially given that before I purchased the black label loco's it's never given me any trouble.

Other loco's still operate as they should even now, it's just the black label ones I'm having an issue with.

 

yes but now can you answer the questions: 

 

Is there a wiring bus?

 

Is it terminated?

 

Can you use another non Hornby controller?

 

 

I and quite a few others from what i read ditched the Elite PDQ  because the results were not good.  NCE was the way forwards for me - but even then i only really got to what i call decent running quality once i had a proper bus  with terminators on each end.

[creilly81]

yes but now can you answer the questions: 

 

Is there a wiring bus?

 

Is it terminated?

 

Can you use another non Hornby controller?

 

 

I and quite a few others from what i read ditched the Elite PDQ  because the results were not good.  NCE was the way forwards for me - but even then i only really got to what i call decent running quality once i had a proper bus  with terminators on each end.

 

Whoops, apologies for not answering the question.

 

Regarding the wiring, I just have 1 feed via a Hornby digital track connector which then feeds all other lines.

 

Sorry for sounding stupid, but what do you mean by terminators on each of the ends?

 

I will try my Hornby Select later and see if that makes them respond any differently.

 

[Red Baron]

Whoops, apologies for not answering the question.

 

Regarding the wiring, I just have 1 feed via a Hornby digital track connector which then feeds all other lines.

 

Sorry for sounding stupid, but what do you mean by terminators on each of the ends?

 

I will try my Hornby Select later and see if that makes them respond any differently.

 

 

I wouldnt bother trying the select - they are beyond useless.

 

 

the idea of  a DCC bus is that you run a pair of wires end to end of the layout - then connect all the power connections from the train into the bus.  rather than wires right back to the controller.

 

On the end of the bus ( which should not be connected in a loop - i.e.   a red wire and a black wire that the two ends of the same colour are not joined.)  - and this is the bit I missed till another member on here prompted me -  you should have a  suppresor / terminator - which stops voltage spikes when shorts occur  these run between red and black at each end. 

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/bus-suppressorsterminators-2-pack/

 

You mention you have electrofrog points so assume you have multiple power feeds as the insulating rail joiners will be breaking up the feed?

[creilly81]

I wouldnt bother trying the select - they are beyond useless.

 

 

the idea of  a DCC bus is that you run a pair of wires end to end of the layout - then connect all the power connections from the train into the bus.  rather than wires right back to the controller.

 

On the end of the bus ( which should not be connected in a loop - i.e.   a red wire and a black wire that the two ends of the same colour are not joined.)  - and this is the bit I missed till another member on here prompted me -  you should have a  suppresor / terminator - which stops voltage spikes when shorts occur  these run between red and black at each end. 

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/bus-suppressorsterminators-2-pack/

 

You mention you have electrofrog points so assume you have multiple power feeds as the insulating rail joiners will be breaking up the feed?

 

Oh I had no idea an end to end required these in addition to a track feed.

The layout I have at present on the window ledge, is/was only to be seen to be temporary one to run new loco's or to display and run some of my stock for my nephews came over.

 

Looks like I'll have to configure it appropriately then and purchase some of these terminator / suppressors. Thanks for the info though, that's really helpful.

 

My mistake - I'm in the process of wanting to upgrade to Electrofrog points but am currently using Insulfrog ones with the little Hornby live feeds added between switches to make all the lines live.

 

Actually to add - I only really noticed it about 8 weeks ago when I purchased Bittern and ran it on another layout. It ran on this window setup I have just fine until then.

I made a very large continuous loop in my kitchen dining room where it could maintain a good high speed continuously to run it in. It run excellently but it developed this fault when I operated another loco.

[Red Baron]

You dont have to have suppressors - but if you  are having issues then for 6 quid its worth a go.

[creilly81]

You dont have to have suppressors - but if you  are having issues then for 6 quid its worth a go.

 

The extra required between tracks and at each end of each line wouldn't apply to a continuous loop though - so if the loco still had the same characteristic on a large basic looped layout, could the issue still be the same?

[Phil S]

"I made a very large continuous loop in my kitchen dining room where it could maintain a good high speed continuously to run it in. It run excellently but it developed this fault when I operated another loco."

 

Phil: This makes it sound as though it is a simple power-drop problem on the long, temporary, layout - presumably with a single track feed,and multiple jack joins.

Have you tried the simple basic tests? - comparing the voltage at different parts of the layout-loop as the (sound-equipped and therefore higher-current-taking locomotive is passing around it?    Do not bother buying 'snubbers' or othr add-on device - Simply get the basic wiring correct for situation,

Do you have a multimeter - if not why not?

Even though a multimeter used on ac volts will give an INCORRECT voltage INDICATION - this DOES NOT MATTER: it is the proportionate change between where the power is connected and the furthest part of the layout loop, during the DYNAMIC situation of the loco running round (as speed was mentioned too) .....  

 

Have you also tried the 'coin test' to see if the track's resistance is LOW ENOUGH to trigger the short-circuit protection on your controller ???? .... although this is not the same as measuring the voltage drop around the layout whilst 'under load' from the moving train, they are related - a problem with one, will show as a problem with the other.  You also mentioned it happening when 2 such locos were running  - both presumably with sound on and at speed??

 

Note that the 'loop resistance' needed to trip the short-cicuit protection will vary with the output-rating of the controller: A '1A' contoller will probably trip by 2Amps, and a 3 Amp controller may need 4-6 Amps to trip - and therefore needs much lower resistance wiring ( a heavier bus than the 1A controller)

As well as passing the 'Coin test' (ie a short circuit ANYWHERE on the track triggering the electronic protection), the voltage drop whilst all the locos are running, measured at the furthest part, should ideally be only minimal / about a volt or two... but can in theory drop to about 7V and the decoders should still work

[Red Baron]

The extra required between tracks and at each end of each line wouldn't apply to a continuous loop though - so if the loco still had the same characteristic on a large basic looped layout, could the issue still be the same?

 

The track is a loop -  the power bus shouldnt be. 

[RAF96]

Is the simple track connector a DC or DCC one. If DC then flip the cover off and snip out the capacitor as it will interfere with the DCC signal. Edit: I see you said it was a digital one.

 

Ideally you should solder track connection wires rather than rely on the dodgy springy finger connector or the slightly better press button connector.

 

As siad above a power drop would be a likely cause and a likely,cause,of that would be the track connector.

 

A small window ledge end to,end shouldnt see a power drop along its length unless there are slack rail hoiners. Try the thumbe test, with power applied and a load,on the track (loco pushing a buffer stop over) feel by thumbe at,each rail joint. If any are hot they are loose and dropping power by resistance.

 

No reason why you cant use the Select as proof of pudding. It only requires a decoder address within the range 0-59. It may not be the best controller in the world but it will run a loco back and forth and operate functions well enough for test purposes.

Rob

[creilly81]

Hi all,

 

Sorry for the delayed response.

 

Phil S - I must admit I haven't tried testing the voltage but I have already conducted the coin test and can confirm it creates a short everywhere I tested it including at the ends of each of the 4 lines.

I uploaded a video to you tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbxwT9CKhsc not long after I bought Bittern in January and before I found the fault. The video just shows a quick running session of the loco, but more importantly it shows the window seal layout as it currently stands (minus all of the other loco's except Mallard) so there are currently 4 clear lines.

 

Rob - regarding the digital track connector, it's the Hornby R8241 with the green connectors. I believe the brown/red one is the DC/Live steam connector.

All track connections are also new and fit tight together. I ruled that possibility out thinking along the same lines.

 

As I've contacted Hornby as well as Dapol, Hornby have suggested I do a master reset of my Elite. Instead, I think if I try both loco's with the Select, this should rule out the Elite and doing the master reset I would have thought. I'd lose all of the address names I've entered otherwise and there are over 100!!

Not the end of the world if I do lose them, but i'll try the Select first tonight and see how I get on.

 

It's really strange because the fault between Mallard and Bittern appears to be intermittent. I run them for about 15 mins last night, separately but on the same layout and they worked ok. Very strange.

[Neil]

The track is a loop -  the power bus shouldnt be. 

 

Possibly naive question here, but why?

[Phil S]

.2 Puzling responss from OP::....and can confirm it creates a short everywhere I tested it including at the ends of each of the 4 lines.

 

Phil S: Fine, no prioblem on the short window cill layout -  but I thought you were saying the LOOP had the 'problem' and then....

and

Rob - regarding the digital track connector, it's the Hornby R8241 with the green connectors. I believe the brown/red one is the DC/Live steam connector.     which appears to be saying you are using an analogue connector (WITH INBUILT CAPACITOR) FOR DCC !!! This is a NO NO !!)

 

So it still looks as if you are corrupting the dcc signal applied to the lopp layout - hence your problem

[Red Baron]

Possibly naive question here, but why?

 

My understanding is that  with a loop when a short occurs the voltages can spike quite massively leading to decoder damage.  if you run the bus end to end and fit suppressors the voltage spikes are eliminated.  Also with a loop there is more chance of dcc commands collideing.. 

[creilly81]

 

.2 Puzling responss from OP::....and can confirm it creates a short everywhere I tested it including at the ends of each of the 4 lines.

 

Phil S: Fine, no prioblem on the short window cill layout -  but I thought you were saying the LOOP had the 'problem' and then....

and

Rob - regarding the digital track connector, it's the Hornby R8241 with the green connectors. I believe the brown/red one is the DC/Live steam connector.     which appears to be saying you are using an analogue connector (WITH INBUILT CAPACITOR) FOR DCC !!! This is a NO NO !!)

 

So it still looks as if you are corrupting the dcc signal applied to the lopp layout - hence your problem

 

Yes the temporary loop I set-up to run Bittern in is where I first noticed the problem which at this stage was intermittent. I've since purchased Mallard and the problem now appears to be consistent on the window seal layout especially with Mallard.

 

No I'm using the DCC track section NOT the DC one. I'm sure I've already tested both loco's with power from the elite being hard wired to the track instead of using the digital track connector. However, I'll try it again later just to be sure and see if that makes any difference.

[RAF96]

The capacitor if any is under the black cover between the rails, which just flips off. The part number quoted is supposed to be the Digital one. If there is a cap in there just snip it out.

 

Edit: Re the Elite reset - yes you will lose any names you have given to locos and points.

[Dagworth]

My understanding is that  with a loop when a short occurs the voltages can spike quite massively leading to decoder damage.  if you run the bus end to end and fit suppressors the voltage spikes are eliminated.  Also with a loop there is more chance of dcc commands collideing.. 

Totally wrong reason I'm afraid, the only thing that could ever even possibly lead to a "massive spike" would be a bloody great coil whereby the voltage collapse would lead to a magnetic induction generated pulse. 

 

The real reason for not having a loop on either the power bus or the rails (the rails ARE a power bus themselves!) is that in theory the signal takes slightly longer to go around one side of the loop to the loco than it does to go around the other side of the loop and so you could get signal corruption. To be honest, with the frequency that DCC works at and the size of our layouts it's a load of cobblers and can be ignored completely unless your layout is ENORMOUS, and I mean much much larger than Ravensclyffe. Same goes for "bus termination". not required, anyone telling you it is is almost certainly the one making money by selling it to you.

 

What I would advise the OP to try would be a single length of track long enough for both locos, connected directly to the Elite and to nothing else, put both locos on that track (and no other locos) and see if the problem occurs. If it does then try exactly the same thing with a different controller.  

 

Andi

[Crosland]

The track is a loop -  the power bus shouldnt be. 

Every time a loco bridges the two open ends it completes the loop.

 

The sky does not fall in. Ergo, the bus can be a loop. Indeed, there are advantages to it being a loop, in the same way we have ring mains in our houses.