Deliberately Old-Fashioned 0 Scale - Chapter 1

[F-UnitMad]

Somehow, that all looks more plausible in Southern mode. Maybe it's because the 3rd rail is justified, even if it's in the wrong place!!   The mass of rails at the points certainly reminds me of my first impressions of seeing the Southern Region as a kid, anyway.

[Northroader]

Wow, green with envy, that’s two you ve got?? Are they two or three rail?

[Nearholmer]

No, no, the LSWR one was someone else’s. I’m entirely three-rail, so haven’t checked, but I think they are 2-3 rail switchable. Coarse standard wheels, though, so I doubt many two-railers would find a use for them.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Northroader]

Mmmmmm.....

[Donw]

Looks lovely cannot help thinking they are missing  orders by not offering a version with finescale wheels

 

Don

[Nearholmer]

It’s a strange thing. ETS offer their own, non-commissioned, models with a choice of wheel profile, and a choice of 2 or 3 rail, and a choice of couplers, but nobody in the UK seems prepared to take the risk of commissioning batches UK-specified locos for 2R with finer wheels.

 

Why is that? The coarse-scale commissioners vary from one-man bands to three/four man bands (Ace Trains), they are small outfits, with limited capacity, seem content with the size of their businesses (all of them have run or been part of bigger businesses in ‘previous lives’), and have a very tight relationship with their customers, so they can control risk by knowing ‘what the market will bear’. The sales channels, and what the market values are fundementally different in fine-scale, and I know from talking with the coarse commissioners that they have no desire to ‘learn the ropes’ of a different market. The same seems to apply in the opposite direction, where finescale commissioners have zero interest or understanding of coarse scale.

 

Never the Twain shall meet, it would appear.

 

Darstaed tried to straddle the divide for a bit, but quickly gave up on the idea and are attempting, quite successfully I think, to change horses from coarse to fine.

 

In the US, on the other hand, MTH seem to straddle fairly successfully, not that there is much of a finescale 0 rtr market to straddle into there.

[F-UnitMad]

In the US, on the other hand, MTH seem to straddle fairly successfully, not that there is much of a finescale 0 rtr market to straddle into there.

Oh, tell me about it!!

 

Actually I don't think US attempts to straddle the divide are all that successful (Atlas do the same with their "Trainman" range) & I wish they'd design models that are distinctly either 2- or 3-rail. There are too many compromises to list in a loco that tries to be all things to everyone, but often life is too short & money too scarce to do much more than just put up wth it, if one wants a particular model and wants to run trains at all...

[Nearholmer]

“a loco that tries to be all things to everyone,” which may be the clue.

 

UK finescalers are, for instance, pretty obsessive about micro-details, which dictate delicate plastic moulded parts.

 

UK coarsescalers tend to believe that plastic is a newfangled material that will never catch on, or the work of the devil (Bakelite excepted), and that a loco should withstand fairly indelicate use for upwards of eighty years without serious damage.

 

The philosophical difference is quite deep.

[Simond]

Interesting point, Kevin, but the rise & fall of the Bachmann brass, and the seemingly continuing rise of high end brass (at high end prices) suggests that it’s not all about plastic.

 

Though for sure at the budget end of the FS market, there are a lot o of nice RTR toys available, all plastic, many with diecast chassis. Sort of upscaled Tri-Ang

 

(Btw, when I consider the time, money and effort that goes into building a brass loco from a kit or from scratch, I don’t think the high end prices are altogether unreasonable - I wouldn’t want to build brass loco [and definitely not coach] kits for money)

 

Best

Simon

[Nearholmer]

Simon

 

I was thinking after I wrote that the more economical end of the brass scale might be the logical place for crossover; fit the final ten with coarse wheels and flangeless centre wheels on 0-6-0. But it hasn’t happened.

 

The very hi-fi end of fine scale brass is way outside the price-band for coarse scale. Models of the exact same prototype tend to come out something around three times the price in hi-fi as in coarse, and when you compare the two the reasons are obvious. The only things that might get close are some of the handmade reproductions of Maerklin 1930s locos and handmade tinplate Basset-Lowke-alikes. where no volume production techniques are used, and things like motors are made to 1930s specifications.

 

And I share you thoughts on brass kits. I used to kit and scratch build, but life now seems too full of other things.

 

Kevin

Edited September 23, 2018 by Nearholmer

[rockershovel]

Quia episcopus dixit mima.

I rather think Sir Pterry’s “quia ego sic disco” covers a great number of possibilities..

[rockershovel]

Now, a picture of a really boring shopping arcade that I just walked down on the way back to the station from a meeting in Birmingaham, which happens to be one of the spiritual homes of Paltry Circus.

PC was inspired by display layouts designed by Greenly c1909-11, and one of his layouts was for the shop window of W H Hull, one of the very first ‘model railway shops’. The shop started as a stationers, and I have a copy of the LNWR train-spotters book that they produced.

Anyway, North Western Arcade fell from grace and got rebuilt a long while back, but, fortunately, Great Western Arcade, which forms a continuation, and shows what it was like c1910, didn’t, so a picture of that too. Imagine going to buy a new wagon or engine in that environment; good, eh?

I rather doubt that its original tenants included the contemporary equivalents of Greggs and Cash Converters, though..

 

There’s a similar arcade on one side of Peterborough’s Queensgate shopping centre, a fortuitous survival ..

[rockershovel]

The English are often accused of living in the past, but I sometimes think that Americans are equally fond of it. I can’t imagine any other nation which still regards coarse-scale O Gauge three-Rail as a commercially viable option in the 21st century.

[GRASinBothell]

If you look at the thread on the Darstaed Mk 1 coaches on this forum, you'll see what happens when a coarse-scale manufacturer moves into finescale territory - calls for all sorts of fine details a coarse-scaler would never have thought of and a concern for absolute scale heights/sizes.

If you look at just the chassis of a loco, there are all sorts of compromises a finescaler wouldn't be happy living with, such as the narrow chassis with no brake gear, and cutouts to allow oversize flanges to negotiate tight curves. It would take a lot more than a wheel swap to make much inroad into finescale sales.

 

Gordon

[Metropolitan H]

It is however, very interesting to read the articles in the G0G Gazette regarding the fitting of 2-rail fine-scale wheels to the "ACE Trains" "Britannia", 9F etc., as the bodies and mechanisms are so good. And the pictures of the pre-production prototype for the BR 8P No. 71000 have just joined the ACE website.

 

All modern ACE Trains locos - and those of other makers - are 3R / 2R switchable - so its only the wheels that need changing.

 

I am also aware that "Skytrex" used / recommended ETS mechanisms with 2R F/S wheels for some of their diesels and GER Tram engines.

 

Don't forget the "Red Tree Models" (associated with ACE Trains) D800 "Warships - Metal bodied with built in sound (not needing DCC), will pull the house down and a superb looker - all for less than 500. There are suggestions that some interesting early Diesel-Electric types will follow.

 

Finally note that all the above-mentioned locos will work on Hornby 3R track or similar with curves down to 2ft radius - can occasionally look a bit strange seeing a Pacific on a sharp curve, but having been brought up with Hornby Dublo I am used to the sight (the track geometry is very similar but larger by 1.75 times!

 

I'm a very happy user of "0" coarse - but slightly worried the fine-scale modellers might latch on to the idea of good models at reasonable prices (even at the cost of replacement wheels).

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited September 23, 2018 by Metropolitan H

[Northroader]

Being nosey, I went on to the WJVintage site and had a look at the Adams Radial. Now, the folks on this thread are running it and must be happy with it, and I think if I had one I would feel the same, particularly as Kevin let me play with his M7, which I found to be a lovely performer. The only blockage I have with it is the price, comparing it to a Dapol 5700 finescale pannier I’ve got, at a price in the £200 blockhole, also a good performer. The only worry I’ve had with the pannier is that the lovely finescale detailing is very delicate to handle, “tinplate” models can stand being picked up and handled much better. This results in watching what Dapol have on offer, and God bless them for making affordable RTR, otherwise getting what I can find in knockdown kits on eBay. Now, if some cheap coarse scale appeared, I would go for it.

I put this problem to a colleague, the celebrated layout designer Herr Doktor Von Krakpott, and he laughed in the slightly deranged way he has, and said, “My friend, this is very simple, you don’t need a professorship at the Heidelberger University to know the answer. Why are you using points, what are they doing? Eliminate them and all the the crossings and checkrails go, and there is no need to worry about the back to back clearances.” I found the bold simplicity of his proposal jaw dropping.

[Ian Kirk]

In the 1950s in the smaller scale Wrenn solved the points problem with their "Universal" pointwork. The checkrails were cosmetic as the pointblades  and stock rails were in one and pivoted in the centre. Throwing the point provided a continuous running surface from the frog to the blade. With nothing to drop into these accepted all wheel standards from Trix to Romfords scale as in effect they provided the point free running recommended by Dr Krakpott.  Years ago I built some in O gauge for a "universal" test track owned by a club.   I am currently considering doing some more for a continuous run layout for "Santa's" station as I have over the years gathered a real mixture of stock.  My finescale O gauge "Thrift Drift" is only 6ft x 2ft 6 and even the stock for this might appreciate a long run. 

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Nearholmer]

Or, make universal points, as illustrated somewhere in this thread (Page 38), which would be a breeze for a man of your evident skill. (duplicating Mr K’s advice, which arrived as I was typing)

 

I’ve noticed s price gap opening too. When the ETS and Dapol Terriers hit the street, the gap wasn’t huge, but now that rtr plastic 0 has created for itself a volume market, the cost of very small runs using what are now outmoded technologies is telling against coarse scale where some tank engines are concerned. Heljan locos aren’t given away free with packets of cornflakes though, are they? They seem to list at very similar prices to coarse scale equivalents; Tower Models have their Big Prairie on offer at a price within £5 of the Ace/ETS version of the same loco.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Nearholmer

[F-UnitMad]

The English are often accused of living in the past, but I sometimes think that Americans are equally fond of it. I can’t imagine any other nation which still regards coarse-scale O Gauge three-Rail as a commercially viable option in the 21st century.

It's the mindset that is -

a) stuck in the 'Transition Era' - the 1950s for America when diesel was making big inroads into steam territory

b) mainline oriented; looooong trains

c) believes the only worthwhile layout is a basement-filling Empire, in which to run said looooong trains.

 

Even with a big basement, the only way to fit in those trains in O Gauge is with coarse standard 3-rail that can turn square corners.

[brianusa]

Interesting comments!  Living in the past somebody mentions; I rather think we all do especially those of us in tinplate trains which usually represent what we grew up with both in real and model form.  Leaving the UK before the diesels arrived I have little interest in their model form so Hornby O gauge and its trains are the era on my layout.  The models available today are lovely, almost too good to mingle with Hornby trains that are my age and older and is the reason I have none.  As some may know American trains are part of my layout also, so anything goes, indeed an US 0-6-0 switcher is presently hauling a train of Hornby goods wagons.

 

Brian.

[Nearholmer]

Very interesting website, drawn to my attention by CH https://templeford.myfreesites.net

 

A key point to note is that the layout described is to feature soon in Railway Modeller, which is a real breakthrough. the positive feedback when Mr Flint has featured retro-layouts must have been noted.

 

There was an article about it in an HRCA journal a while back, and the story is both interesting and rather heartwarming; I won't spoil it.

[Lacathedrale]

This thread and layout are everything right with railway modelling. Hats off!

[St Enodoc]

Very interesting website, drawn to my attention by CH https://templeford.myfreesites.net

 

A key point to note is that the layout described is to feature soon in Railway Modeller, which is a real breakthrough. the positive feedback when Mr Flint has featured retro-layouts must have been noted.

 

There was an article about it in an HRCA journal a while back, and the story is both interesting and rather heartwarming; I won't spoil it.

Delightful - and the section on the Downs Light Railway was a nice bonus. Thanks for the link.

[brianusa]

Impressive layout, but then tinplate can be seen and appreciated on bare baseboards simply because of the 'sound and the fury' generated by all the trains speeding around and which punters always seem to like. On a layout this size it was good that there was so much support.

 

Brian.

[F-UnitMad]

Impressive layout, but then tinplate can be seen and appreciated on bare baseboards simply because of the 'sound and the fury' generated by all the trains speeding around and which punters always seem to like. On a layout this size it was good that there was so much support.Brian.

I do tend to wonder why so many modellers seem obsessed with making their trains run quietly (usually focussing on choice of track underlay) when the real things are such noisy contraptions!!