Deliberately Old-Fashioned 0 Scale - Chapter 1

[Simond]

I do wish the RTR 0F that is available now had been available in my youth.

 

But would I ever have learned to solder?

 

Philosophically

Simon

[Nearholmer]

This engine might look pretty, but it’s rapidly working it’s way off of my Christmas card list.

 

I had to wait in at home all morning, so decided to attempt to advance its performance from ‘good on my plain track’ to ‘very good everywhere’. What a frustrating process!!! I can now see why it has short spoons, because it is really fiddly to get long ones to fit without shorting on things, added to which I discovered burrs on the wormwheel, and that the motor mount screws come loose as it runs. Currently ‘better, but still not up to standard’, and I can see why these mechanisms are called ‘fragile’.

 

If it doesn’t behave itself soon, I may just get a completely new mech for it.

[Northroader]

Once you’ve expended some creative flair on it, you’ll love it all the more.

[Nearholmer]

Possibly.

 

There was a point earlier where I came close to throwing the mechanism on the floor and stamping on it!

 

Very thin tin sheet isn't a stable-enough material from which to make mechanisms, and white metal wheels, press-fitted onto plain steel-rod axles, are a particularly bad idea.

 

But, it now runs ver smoothly, when electricity can reach the motor, so if I can fully solve the spoon problem.....

 

Still, takes my mind off other things.

[Northroader]

Really, it ought to have some Slaters finescale wheels with insulation, and go to 2rail, and all your troubles would be over?✌️

[Metropolitan H]

Possibly.

 

There was a point earlier where I came close to throwing the mechanism on the floor and stamping on it!

 

Very thin tin sheet isn't a stable-enough material from which to make mechanisms, and white metal wheels, press-fitted onto plain steel-rod axles, are a particularly bad idea.

 

But, it now runs ver smoothly, when electricity can reach the motor, so if I can fully solve the spoon problem.....

 

Still, takes my mind off other things.

Do you want to have a chat regarding drastic actions like:

- Cast-iron wheels from Walsall Model Industries (Ask for "Extra Coarse"!)?

- Decent slabs of 1.6mm ("16 gauge" as near as dam**t) brass or steel  for frames - with real spacers to stop things lozenging and the some more robust pick-ups?

 

Hang-on it would be cheaper and easier to fit the right size ETS mech! - But that would almost negate the charm of your wayward little engine.

 

Will call for an up-date tomorrow.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Nearholmer]

“Hang-on it would be cheaper and easier to fit the right size ETS mech!”

 

That’s what I’ve threatened it with, but I’ve not given-up yet.

[Simond]

Lot to be said for Walsall wheels & Premier chassis...

 

Best

Simon

[Metropolitan H]

You can always borrow a reliable 14xx and auto-coach to  keep the traffic running while the red engine sulks?

 

Regards

Chris H

 

[Nearholmer]

The obvious answer is to nick the mechanism from that.

 

Three photos below display the issue of ‘gapping’: standard spoon span is 4”/100mm; this loco has c55mm, which gaps definitively; yesterday I jury-rigged 80mm, using bits of shim soldered to the spoons at about the maximum that can be achieved, still nursery, with stops at low speed, so clearly tapping slightly.

 

Set of standard spoons and the ones from this loco.

 

Photo of the underside, which shows how long spoons can easily contact the worm at one end and the pony-truck at the other.

 

I think I am going to make a set up at c85mm, which is pushing it, but ideas from the collective would be welcomed.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Northroader]

Could you make up a “skate” rather than spoons, and extend a bit further forward under the pony?

[Nearholmer]

I will check that option, but anything, spoons or skate, that extends too far beyond the fixed wheelbase will have a tendency to ‘overthrow’ and contact the running rails. Some BL locos are prone to do that, because the fixed wheelbase of the 4-4-0 is very short; they were really designed for a slightly raised third rail, so that the lowest spoon position was a gnats crochet above the running rails, whereas ‘modern’ third rail is level with the running rails.

[Northroader]

I hadn’t appreciated the third rail was level these days, I thought it was still a bit above the running rails, so, next question, how are the pickups arranged on the thoroughly modern 14xx that Chris has trundling round? Could that be copied? Plungers just behind the buffer beam?

[Annie]

Perhaps at the gear drive end of things the spoon could be supported by two rods running either side of the worm gear.  That might help a little with being able to increase the span of the pickup spoons.

[Donw]

I would be thinking about some kind of minimum skate that could hang unde the pony truck and there for be swung to follow the rails trouble is I can see it might catch on the gaps. I assume to the runnung rail which the shoe/skate crosses would have to be isolated if not to cause a short. Perhaps it would be possible to switch that to the third rail to give an extra  pick up point. I seem to remember with stud cntact the studs were higher at turnout to keep the skate clear of the stock rails and avoid any need for switching.

 

Don

[Mark Carne]

Nearholmer, I too have a chopper tank by Highfield models, and I fitted one of those excellent pickup spoon units from Paul Lumsden, I'll post some photos later.

[Nearholmer]

Aah! Interesting; so, i’m not the only one to cross this bridge.

 

“0how are the pickups arranged on the thoroughly modern 14xx that Chris has trundling round?”

 

Standard ETS spoons, which are a cunningly low-profile design, but I think it might only have a 60mm spoon-span ...... the clutch and freewheel on ETS locos allows them to coast over short gaps, which an ordinary worm won’t.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Simond]

Aah! Interesting; so, i’m not the only one to cross this bridge.

“0how are the pickups arranged on the thoroughly modern 14xx that Chris has trundling round?”

Standard ETS spoons, which are a cunningly low-profile design, but I think it might only have a 60mm spoon-span ...... the clutch and freewheel on ETS locos allows them to coast over short gaps, which an ordinary worm won’t.

You could always fit DCC with keep alive....

 

Simon

[Nearholmer]

I won’t show the single digit that I use for control; such a hand-gesture might be open to misinterpretation.

[Titan]

Can the worm be pushed further on to the motor shaft? Looks like there are a few turns left beyond the wormwheel which are not in mesh. This would improve clearance.

[Nearholmer]

You’re right, but it seems firmly fixed, and I daren’t apply violence.

[GRASinBothell]

The spoon-span on my 14xx seems to be a tad under 80mm (very similar to the Corgi Bassett-Lowke Peckett, though that uses rollers, rather than spoons).

Gordon

[Metropolitan H]

Aah! Interesting; so, i’m not the only one to cross this bridge.

 

“0how are the pickups arranged on the thoroughly modern 14xx that Chris has trundling round?”

 

Standard ETS spoons, which are a cunningly low-profile design, but I think it might only have a 60mm spoon-span ...... the clutch and freewheel on ETS locos allows them to coast over short gaps, which an ordinary worm won’t.

K,

 

Standard ETS spoon span is 3 inches 76.(a very little bit) mm. - this goes for the replacement for the Hornby clockwork (with added lead to enable prodigious haulage feats) and the 14xx tank.

 

Not sure where 60mm came from - although that is the wheelbase of the replacement Hornby mech. The wheelbase of the 14xx is 2 inches (almost 51 mm).

 

If you want to persevere with the original mech., I think I can see how a shortened WJV spoon set can be arrange that does not interfere with the gears and still has a good spoon contact points length. Talk / play tomorrow late p.m. - or other mutually convenient time - I'll bring the modified Hornby tank and the 14xx. In the meantime measure the spoon centres on the ETS made "Adams Radial" / "Terriers" (of which you have a whole pack! )  / "M7" - I suspect at least some of these have the same spoon set as the 14xx / Hornby replacement.

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited October 11, 2018 by Metropolitan H

[brianusa]

I wonder what criteria manufacturers base their measurements on?  This problem occurs frequently on all makes and shows up mostly on points and crossovers which obviously makes it difficult due to the many differences in design.  However, it doesn't appear that much research is undertaken before production but with the variety available, it would be difficult anyway.

 

Brian.

[Nearholmer]

Don

 

The switch-rails are switched electrically, but the wrong-length pair of spoons will 'gap' as they straddle the switch-rail and don't reach the conductor rail on either side. In that sense, a short skate might be better.

 

Incidentally, this all comes about because I like to run trains slowly, and shunt, run-round etc. Quite a few retr-0-philes haven't got home layouts and only run their trains at meetings, where the order of the day tends to be circuits, without points, to maximise compatibility across the bewildering array of wheel-standards that have been used from 1900 to date ..... simple circuits don't throw-up all these issues.

 

Brian

 

Very true. I think the standard spoon-span is supposed to be 4", but I don't know whether that is 'standard' as in 'written in a normative document', or as in 'most common'; in either case it is much honoured in the breach.

 

Kevin

Edited October 11, 2018 by Nearholmer