Deliberately Old-Fashioned 0 Scale - Chapter 1

[Mark Carne]

3 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Excellent. I've got a little portable voltmeter thing - I'll check if that does amps too. Is there an idiots guide for servicing somewhere?

 

Cheers!

Has it got the instruction sheet? That shows how to remove the body, and the main lubricating points. To be honest, once you've got the to off, it's all big enough to see and simple enough to work on.

 

Mark

[Mark Carne]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Needling, I think is the term.

 

And you can’t beat a good big needle on you ammeter.

 

:-)

 

 

I have to admire your dedication to the "Deliberately old fashioned" cause.  ;-)

 

Mark

[Lacathedrale]

Righto, just checked with my d*g*tal ammeter and looks like it's drawing about 300mA at 30%, 400mA at 40% and jumped to 1A briefly and then back to about 600mA at max thrust on Gaugemaster Series 10 controller.  @Mark Carne unfortunately no instruction sheet for the schools, only the Arthur...

[Mark Carne]

10 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Righto, just checked with my d*g*tal ammeter and looks like it's drawing about 300mA at 30%, 400mA at 40% and jumped to 1A briefly and then back to about 600mA at max thrust on Gaugemaster Series 10 controller.  @Mark Carne unfortunately no instruction sheet for the schools, only the Arthur...

Sounds within acceptable parameters amp wise. Maybe a member here with an Ace Schools could send you a photo of the instructions by message, I would myself, but I never brought one. I ordered one when they were first announced, but there was a sudden price jump for specific names, and I decided I didn't need one after all.

 

Mark

[andi4x4]

Ten years or so ago, I had an early Corgi B/L Maunsell 2-6-0 "N" Class that made a similar noise. I purchased it second hand from a collector who claimed to not have run it at all from new. I am aware that there were batches of that particular loco that had noisy gearboxes and there was an aftermarket replacement available if I recall correctly.

 

Also, about the same time, I purchased a brand new Ace 'Celebration' 4-4-0 tender loco which had similar issues.

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by andi4x4

[Nearholmer]

I think I've got instructions - will post a copy if I have.

 

Mine came from a fellow fanatic secondhand, so was a very reasonable price, otherwise I wouldn't have it.

 

Andi - if you go back up-thread, there is a discussion of the Moguls.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Tattenham Corner here one comes!

 

Current <500mA at reasonable speed and c800mA spinning its wheels against the stops.

 

Sound is a sort of silky whine.

 

Despite trying, I couldn’t get a decent voltage reading.

 

 

Instructions:

 

 

 

 

 

[andi4x4]

I have been reading the forum almost daily for several years, so, I did catch that discussion, but, modelling time has been taken up with far too many other things over the past 2-3 years due to the house move, renovations of the purchased property, restoration of one motorbike and custom build of another, and occasionally competing in online motorsports championships. And, believe it or not, in amongst all that, finding time to work a 42 hour week too !

 

I do find, however, that the more I read RMWeb, the more I hanker to get back at it !

 

 

[Simond]

Schools Out....

 

sounds like the gear mesh is far too tight to me.  Hopefully a simple adjustment.

 

hth

Simon

[Lacathedrale]

Taking the body off was quite a chore - the motor barely squeezed through the hole in the running plate and I've got NO IDEA how I'm going to get it back on. Also, no markings on which way the 2R/3R switch is oriented and a gigantic washer fell out of somewhere that's not on the service sheet - but here are some photos of the mechanism:

 

 

 

I also found this spring clip loose inside:

 

 

All the grease is opaque grey/green/brown and sticky to the touch. It says to me that it needs to be stripped down, cleaned and put back together again? Is this something I can/should do (as an all-thumbs kind of man who just fumbles along in 2mm)  - or should I be looking to return this (it was described as 'immaculate and eppears unused'), or sending to a specialist? I sent my question to the vendor who has replied:
 

Quote

As for your concerns regarding the sound of the Eton Schools Class E10 as they are called this is perfectly normal and is how they sound and are as all the older ACE are like this

 

Definitely the sound is exascerbated by the nature of the hollow core door, as picking it up and letting it free-wheel with jumper leads removes some of this grating sound - but that's still a bit of a shame

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Lacathedrale

[Nearholmer]

It looks to me as if the grease might be “madras marmalade” as applied to the Celebration 4-4-0 locos, which is a true mechanism killer ........ I’ve never heard of it being in an E10 before though, and it is hard to tell from a photo.

 

If it is, the worry has to be that damage might already have been caused ..... see our PM conversation a couple of weeks ago.
 

As to “they all sound like that”. No they don’t. When correctly lubricated they are sewing machines.

 

Needs to be cleaned right out and properly lubricated, which you can DIY, but might better be entrusted to a specialist (can recommend one). 
 

It does look ‘new and unused’, but poorly lubricated and possibly poorly adjusted at the factory to me ....... goodness only knows where that leaves you with the vendor!

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Lacathedrale]

Please do recommend your specialist - just for another opinion and idea of the cost. With distance seller regulations I'm entitled to return the item for a full refund with 14 days of receipt for any reason, so I'm not so much worried about returning it - rather I'm concerned with having bought a lemon and/or something that's going to cost another £000 to get to good running condition.

[Nearholmer]

See PM.

[Lacathedrale]

I got the motor disconnected and this is what the gear train looks like - all the gears are in perfect nick so unless there's some other factor I think it may just be down to adjustment:

 

 

All of this grease was very sticky - but then, I'm expecting it to be like swarfega - not like honey!

 

I think I may have found the culprit - it appears there's one gear which has some lateral movement in it, so It would appear that it can oscillate from side to side and come into contact with the gearbox maybe causing that sound? Maybe the source of that spring clip I pulled out earlier on?

 

 

The overall distance is only about About a 80 thou but I can find no brass filings, chipped teeth, bits of metal, etc. elsewhere so I'm not sure what else the noise could be? I've started to remove some of the grease build-up with a brush, but I gather that if I need to put a washer on this gear that I'll have to fully disassemble the gearbox.

 

Cheers!

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Getting all the old grease out with white spirit, then re-greasing with a tiny bit of good synthetic gear grease, and oiling the bearings with a tiny bit of good light synthetic oil is the best way, but I don’t know how the wheels are fitted on that loco (put mine away now) so I don’t know what the challenges/risks in stripping it right down to do that are.

 

Even just clearing the excess grease and lubricating all the layshaft bearings should help - I bet they are dry.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Lacathedrale]

Spoken to aforementioned specialist and it seems that a) the Schools IS slightly louder due to the crown/pinion drive but b) it shouldn't be VERY loud. Prescription - as you have suggested, Kev - strip down the gearbox with thinners and re-grease, re-oil all the bearings and axles with synthetic engine oil and see what happens. I'm only about 45 minutes drive from the gent, who said it'd only cost about £20 for the work - so when I have thoroughly ballsed it up I can at least stick all the bits in a margerine tub and get him to have a look.

 

Cheers!

[rockershovel]

Part of what led me into US outline O Gauge was the number of Lionel locos appearing, often in NIB or very little used, as collections built up in the 80s and 90s are dispersed. One important lesson I learnt is that most of these haven’t been lubricated in decades, and the gearbox grease required washing out with white spirit and lubricating with a modern lubricant before use. 

 

Lionel (and for that matter, US locos generally) are NOT quiet in operation, especially on tubular track, but it’s a matter of degree.. I agree that using a hollow core door as a test track isn’t ideal. I started down that path but soon stopped. I invested in a rolling road and a loco stand, and it has been money well spent 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by rockershovel

[Donw]

What every modeller needs is a mechanical genius for a friend. I have known two. One Frank Thompson would fix peoples locos and used to buy poor running locos off traders cheap then sort them out. 

The other was Steve Naylor who sadly is not in the best of health these days. When we took my layout to shows and Steve was with me. People in the know would turn up with problem locos for Steve to 'just have a look'. There was some trouble with worn valve gear on my steam railmotor Steve took it away for a look and returned it with all the valve gear bushed. A true gent.

 

Don

[Simond]

7 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Spoken to aforementioned specialist and it seems that a) the Schools IS slightly louder due to the crown/pinion drive but b) it shouldn't be VERY loud. Prescription - as you have suggested, Kev - strip down the gearbox with thinners and re-grease, re-oil all the bearings and axles with synthetic engine oil and see what happens. I'm only about 45 minutes drive from the gent, who said it'd only cost about £20 for the work - so when I have thoroughly ballsed it up I can at least stick all the bits in a margerine tub and get him to have a look.

 

Cheers!

 

you might find that when you’ve cleaned all the goo off, you’ll be find the groove that the CIRCLIP (ruddy smellchequer) belongs in, and after growing two more arms and a prehensile tail, you’ll be able to re-insert it and your loco will run silkily smooth....
 

good luck!

Simon

Edited August 27, 2020 by Simond

[Lacathedrale]

I'm afraid it's already fallen into the bottom of the cup formed by the mechanism - I'm sure it'll turn up one of these days

[brianusa]

The sad part is that all this shouldn't happen on a brand new loco

     Brian

[sncf231e]

45 minutes ago, brianusa said:

The sad part is that all this shouldn't happen on a brand new loco

     Brian

The ACE Schools class is from 2010. Not really brand new

Regards

Fred

[Nearholmer]

And therein, I suspect, lies the problem. If you put a blob of even the best modern grease, let alone some possibly more traditional stuff, out in the air, and leave it undisturbed for a decade, it isn't likely to fare well. Similarly a small pool of light oil.

 

Not the same sort of grease, I hope, but I have one Bassett Lowke loco that must have lain untouched for five decades, having been generously lubricated with a traditional mineral oil grease (it smelt just like my childhood Hornby Dublo), and that grease had decomposed to two main components: a very watery one; and, something almost completely solid, like grey shale. It had done no harm, but if I'd run the loco with that in the mechanism .......

[brianusa]

Of course, you're right Fred, but it really shouldn't happen to a ten year old either!

      Brian.

[rockershovel]

At least you are free from the dreaded zinc pest! I’ve read more than I want to about this on forums like O Gauge RR, I can only say that “touch wood”, I haven’t encountered it so far. 

 

Regarding “new locos”, I’d feel that a loco which has lain untouched, or very little used in its original box for years, can and should be regarded as “new” for running purposes, once lubrication issues have been addressed. This doesn’t mean that the electronics, if any, haven’t degraded; the Sounds Of Steam card on the MPC era Hudson (including the “dying cow” whistle) is pretty much u/s but having heard one of these in use, and since the loco doesn’t need it to run, I just leave it unplugged. The K Line loco has a RailSounds card which sounds fairly poor (especially compared to the quite terrifying whistle on the Williams Hudson!) but as it runs well - so the rectification for the can motor is clearly working - I’ve just put this down to changing standards over time.