First Group win South West franchise

[buritonhampshire]

That would also allow the SWT suburban services go DOO (the 707s already having the necessary cameras / monitors on board).

 

Naturally the RMT won't like it - and as can be seen with MerseyRail and Northern, they aren't afraid to start industrial disputes over it - and their statements regarding SWT sound much the same as for those operations  http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/to-all-members-at-south-wes27317/ http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-south-west-trains-franchise-announcement/

 

Equally there has long been dissatisfaction in Whitehall over the retention of Guards on SWT when every other London suburban franchise has got rid of them and given the DfTs intransigence over the issue at Southern, they might be looking forward to doing something about it.

DOO is seen as a way to save money - forgetting additional costs for despatch and surveillance devices. Government policy, I'm afraid.

 

More importantly I can't reconcile the figures. the press release promises 22,000 seats extra in the morning peak and 30,000 in the evening. Note this is ADDITIONAL. My rough calculation would make this an extra 20 to 30 trains (not extra carriages!) to get into and out of Waterloo on a line with no extra capacity.

 

Has anyone checked with Network Rail about the extra lines needed for this sort of service!!??

 

Roger

[phil-b259]

Surely the other point of privatisation was Govt leaving well alone and letting the supposedly superior private sector do things the way it wants. If that includes having guards, why not?

 

Because the Government has stated that it considers the UK railway "too expensive / too much of a drain on taxpayers / unsustainable in the long term" - and as they still provide a large subsidy to the industry, many, times the pittance they gave to BR, they do sort of have a point.

 

However rather than address the real issues, lest they show up the inherent flaws in the rail franchising system (which was supposed to be all about transferring risk to the private sector and brining private sector ambition / dynamism to a former state enterprise), they instead commissioned the McNulty report (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4204/realising-the-potential-of-gb-rail.pdf) - which was very explicit in who were considered responsible for this. He duly obliged, basically saying that was all the fault of railway staff who were overpaid, unproductive, hostile to new ideas / technology and had far too many retained perks compared to the private sector. Thus the agenda has been quite clear - cutting staff is to be encouraged, which was given a voice by Mr Peter Wilkinson's outburst at a Conservative party meeting (http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/department-transport-says-break-train-drivers/story-28783309-detail/story.html) which then led to the long running Southern Railway dispute.

Edited March 27, 2017 by phil-b259

[Joseph_Pestell]

SWT has not, I think, been costing the Govt anything. One of the premium payers. Easier to pay that premium if your trains are actually running.

[phil-b259]

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail/FGP/13171647.html

 

There is a suggestion from this article and another source that the 18 "new" trains for the Pompey line are infact refurbished (again) 442s!

 

They will have to work fast if they want 18 of them back in service by December next year in an 'as new' condition. As has been discussed in a previous thread the units are in dire need of a complete strip down to bare metal, a full rewire and replacement of the obsolete equipment (i.e. impossible to get spares for stuff like door mechanisms / air con). There is also the matter of the very inefficient traction package (which doesn't allow regenerative braking etc) and the issue of very narrow doorways at the very ends of the coach causing massive issues with station dwell times in the peak (the newer 444s, while also being 23m vehicles, much wider doors plus they are positioned further towards the centre of the coach allowing for wider vestibules, etc)

Edited March 27, 2017 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

SWT has not, I think, been costing the Govt anything. One of the premium payers. Easier to pay that premium if your trains are actually running.

 

That has indeed been the case so far - but you cannot escape the feeling that at present the Government is on a mission to upset that cushty status quo. Logic says that if it is a premium payer now, getting rid of a large quantity of staff will make that premium even larger due to wage savings - the difficult bit is transiting from one to another - but as Mr Wilkinson observed to his chums in Croydon, if the Government holds its nerve, it will eventually succeed (as per the Southern dispute)

 

As is always the case with new franchises, the devil is in the detail and we may not know the various parties true intentions for some time yet.

[Siberian Snooper]

Spotlight news has given a 15 minute reduction in journey time between Exeter and Waterloo, but I have only see an 11 minute reduction between Salisbury and Waterloo in a link in one of the above posts.

[Dunsignalling]

If the government insist on no guard operation, once you get west of Salisbury where the stations are manned, at best, in office hours, you can kiss goodbye to maintaining existing timings let alone getting any improvements.

 

It'll be OK during the fig leaf period when there is still a downgraded on-board presence but once that disappears (and it will) the driver will have to deal with getting any wheelchairs on or off at times/stations without platform staff.

 

He/she will have to get out, prepare the ramp, take it to appropriate door, do the necessary, put everything back, get in and continue the journey. A five or six minute station stop introduced completely at random when the schedule allows (at most) 90 seconds. Possibly the same again when the passenger wants to disembark.. If implemented on a line with single line sections, DOO will create chaos when no station staff are on duty. Just two wheelchair users embarking and disembarking en route could easily accumulate 20 minutes of delay. If that much has built up on a down train by Honiton, it then gets held for another twenty because the up train will be given priority. 

 

John  

Edited March 27, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Spotlight news has given a 15 minute reduction in journey time between Exeter and Waterloo, but I have only see an 11 minute reduction between Salisbury and Waterloo in a link in one of the above posts.

Don't see where they can get that from quite frankly.

 

The only way to achieve it would be to introduce faster units, and replacing the current diesel fleet isn't in the plan AFAIK.

 

Even if it was, on much of the route, the signal spacing only permits 80-90 mph line speeds, which the 159s can do anyway. Resignalling as well? Within 7 years? Yeah Right!

 

Just as much pie-in-the-sky as the notion of every peak-hour commuter into London getting a seat.

 

John

Edited March 27, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[phil-b259]

If the government insist on no guard operation, once you get west of Salisbury where the stations are manned, at best, in office hours, you can kiss goodbye to maintaining existing timings let alone getting any improvements.

 

It'll be OK during the fig leaf period when there is still a downgraded on-board presence but once that disappears (and it will) the driver will have to deal with getting any wheelchairs on or off at times/stations without platform staff.

 

He/she will have to get out, prepare the ramp, take it to appropriate door, do the necessary, put everything back, get in and continue the journey. A five or six minute station stop introduced completely at random when the schedule allows no more than 90 seconds. Possibly the same again when the passenger wants to disembark.. If implemented on a line with single line sections, DOO will create chaos when no station staff are on duty. Just two wheelchair users embarking and disembarking en route could easily accumulate 20 minutes of delay. If that much has built up on a down train by Honiton, it then gets held for another twenty because the up train will be given priority. 

 

John  

 

To be fair I - even if the DfT do push DOO, then I don't see WOE or other 'Long distance' services losing Guards. It should be noted that even on Southern, a number of routes (including the DMU operated services plus the Coastway routes from Brighton) are keeping Guards due to either the nature of the service provided or the rolling stock used not being DOO equipped. On SWT it has long been accepted that going DOO on the inners requires the replacement of the 455s / 456s as it is official policy that all DOO equipment is mounted in / on the train and not the platforms in future.

Edited March 27, 2017 by phil-b259

[Christopher125]

I wonder how the poor old Island Line will do under this lot? Not many (if any) options for "new" stock exist and the remaining 1938 stock looks rather knackered to me.

JF

According to Island Echo it seems a new loop/30min interval service and 'more modern' trains are on the cards, which would be a welcome and common-sense enhancement though we'll have to wait for confirmation.

 

On the Isle of Wight a number of improvements will be made to Island Line, including the aim of running a half-hourly service to meet cross-Solent services thanks to the introduction of a new passing loop. More modern stock and signalling are also expected.

 

First MTR South Western say they have an exciting package of proposals to discuss with the Isle of Wight community, but they need further consultation with local stakeholders and Department for Transport (DfT) first.

The IW County Press also report that passengers can expect to see:

 

• Better connections with cross-Solent channel and mainland train services

• A £50,000 customer and communities fund will be set up for improving local stations and passenger experience

• Through-ticketing will be available through the web and mobile apps, along with more information about connecting services

• A new Delay Repay compensation scheme for delays of 15 minutes or more, and discount for purchasing 12 consecutive monthly season tickets.

• A Student Connect smart ticket for 16-18 year olds. The ticket will offer one-third off weekly or longer tickets, and further term-time discounts for under 16s

• A marketing campaign will be launched to raise the profile of Island Line and the Isle of Wight. The company will work with Visit Isle of Wight, Hovertravel, Wightlink and Red Funnel.

[Edwin_m]

They will have to work fast if they want 18 of them back in service by December next year in an 'as new' condition. As has been discussed in a previous thread the units are in dire need of a complete strip down to bare metal, a full rewire and replacement of the obsolete equipment (i.e. impossible to get spares for stuff like door mechanisms / air con). There is also the matter of the very inefficient traction package (which doesn't allow regenerative braking etc) and the issue of very narrow doorways at the very ends of the coach causing massive issues with station dwell times in the peak (the newer 444s, while also being 23m vehicles, much wider doors plus they are positioned further towards the centre of the coach allowing for wider vestibules, etc)

Perhaps they can apply the power-door modification developed for the Scotrail HSTs to the 442 cars which are also based on a Mk3 bodyshell. 

[phil-b259]

Perhaps they can apply the power-door modification developed for the Scotrail HSTs to the 442 cars which are also based on a Mk3 bodyshell. 

 

I was thinking along the same lines - but its still a lot of work and doesn't solve the door apertures themselves not being as wide or as well placed as on the 444s. That said bigger vestibules and easier access from the seating areas could help mitigate this slightly.

[phil_sutters]

If the government insist on no guard operation, once you get west of Salisbury where the stations are manned, at best, in office hours, you can kiss goodbye to maintaining existing timings let alone getting any improvements.

 

It'll be OK during the fig leaf period when there is still a downgraded on-board presence but once that disappears (and it will) the driver will have to deal with getting any wheelchairs on or off at times/stations without platform staff.

 

He/she will have to get out, prepare the ramp, take it to appropriate door, do the necessary, put everything back, get in and continue the journey. A five or six minute station stop introduced completely at random when the schedule allows (at most) 90 seconds. Possibly the same again when the passenger wants to disembark.. If implemented on a line with single line sections, DOO will create chaos when no station staff are on duty. Just two wheelchair users embarking and disembarking en route could easily accumulate 20 minutes of delay. If that much has built up on a down train by Honiton, it then gets held for another twenty because the up train will be given priority. 

 

John  

Presumably there are places around the country that have single-crewed trains and un-staffed stations. Is the above how things operate there? Our Coastway services, running east and west out of Brighton, still have two crew, whatever their respective functions are. The guard/conductor/OBS still has to sell tickets and check them as unstaffed stations have no barriers. Who does that on single crewed trains? Since the DOO dispute has been going on there have been far fewer ticket checks as staff understandably want to minimize contact with disgruntled passengers. I have been to London and back and on some occasions had no on-board ticket inspections at all. When the extensive bustitution of the Seaford branch was going on there were hardly any checks on the buses by SR staff so plenty of free trips were taken - not by me of course!

Is it significant that there is almost no mention of station staff or the requirements of disability access and support in any of the publications mentioned in this thread? I would really like to see some of the big disability and elderly people's organisations get stuck into the accessibility and customer care issues. Clearly the new franchise holders don't see it as an issue. Smart phone apps aren't everyone's ideal method of communication either.

Edited March 27, 2017 by phil_sutters

[great central]

Refitting the DMU fleet in the same way as the EMT 158s would not far off double the number of seats I think. Current SWT 158s (don't know about the 159s) have around 40 seats per car on average. The EMT ones have near on 70 seats per car on average

[Zomboid]

The interior of their 159s are exactly the same as the 158s. And there are considerably more than 40 seats in each carriage. More like 70 in the standard carriages, actually.

[brianusa]

Reading these last few pages, in spite of corporate promises it doesn't appear that much will change.  How many times have passengers read this stuff, which doesn't come to pass and  we will continue to revisit it all over again in the future.

 

Brian.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Reading these last few pages, in spite of corporate promises it doesn't appear that much will change.  How many times have passengers read this stuff, which doesn't come to pass and  we will continue to revisit it all over again in the future.

 

Brian.

With the tracks already at full capacity, not much can. About the only real difference is 10-car trains against 8-car for the suburban routes. They will probably reduce the number of seats per car and there will be fewer cabs. So perhaps a 35/40% increase in notional capacity there.

[Gwiwer]

DDA compliance will be an issue.  Anyone who has attempted to board a 455 knows that.  The steps from platform to train are in some cases very large and without an on-board person to assist with a ramp there could be breaches of the Act.  What ever a new franchisee might promise new rolling stock to replace a fleet that size isn't going to be whistled up out of thin air within a 7-year franchise.

 

I am already wondering how some of the so-called promises are going to be met and whether the government has been hoodwinked (or blinded by numbers preceded with a £ sign) and is this new mob offering something completely unachievable.  The government has been proven wrong before when dazzled by £££ as two failed franchises on the ECML testify.

 

The sheer number of additional "seats", however these are arranged, to and from Waterloo has me asking where the track capacity will come from.  Some additional platform capacity will be created this August with 1-4 extended to 10 cars and the former International station is being returned to suburban use.  But beyond the station there is still a finite amount of track capacity and longer trains take longer to clear the sections and critical pointwork and platforms.  It isn;t clear (to me - have I missed something?) whether these additional seats are in fact additional over and above the 10-car scheme already being introduced under the SWT franchise or are they even more?  If the former then this is misleading propaganda because these increases have already been announced and work is well under way to deliver them.  As passengers on the Windsor lines and some main line stopping services have already noticed.

 

The journey time reductions seem unlikely without removing some popular stops and as was mentioned above the Woking flyover will be required before very much can be saved there.  The longer distance trains are already timed to just about the limit of the road, station dwell times are increasing as patronage booms so there's nothing to be saved there.  Carving chunks of time out of an Exeter run is a recipe for disaster until the entire route is double-tracked; it has taken a lot of work and a lot of money to get that route to where it is today after the cuts of the 1960s and 1970s and to undo it by making the timetable too tight could return it to those dark days.

I also question the reality of recycling the 442s.  It is said by those who know them that they need a large amount of work done to ensure their continued reliability and safe operation.  To replace all the traction gear will take many months, there are other issues which require attention and then the "new" units must be tested and drivers familiarised.  The 442s have been off the SW for long enough now that few drivers will retain traction knowledge.  Lots of money, perhaps three to four years (of a seven year franchise) before we see results and a catalogue of missed "Promised by" dates to answer for.

[Paul.Uni]

Way off topic

Swanage have one and painted it teak! (Yuck).

The Mock Teak Vinyled 4TC is owned by London Underground. It is currently having some restoration work, including a repaint into a new livery, carried out at Eastleigh. Swanage's 4TC set is currently at Midland Railway Butterley awaiting restoration. The replacement Driver Trailer for this has be restored into Blue & Grey and is currently stored at the Kent & East Sussex Railway.

[roythebus]

Having been following this thread on various Facebook groups through the day, still nobody is sure what stock they intend to use for the IoW services. Maybe Piccadilly Line units as they're due for replacement soon.

 

Various reports state the 442s WIILL be refurbished for the Waterloo-Pompey services with new style plug doors that are disabled-compatible. there was a discussion on here recently that they be used on an open-access service from Soton to Waterloo during the peaks; that seems to have died a death.

 

What was of interest was a bit in The Grauniad online:   "He said that the £2.6bn contract represented a “disciplined” bid, and that the operator would be compensated should Brexit lead to economic decline. The terms of the deal will reduce payments should GDP and employment in London fall. “It does allow us to balance off some of the risk for Brexit. Though plainly the risk is here for us.”

 

So it seems the franchise is also being made brexit proof too, surely an admission form the Transport Minister that it isn't going to go as planned!

 

For those who want to see the full details, there's been postings on FB that link to the government website that has all the details in it, sorry, I forgot to copy the link to here.

[Gwiwer]

My family and friends on the Isle of Wight are also actively wondering what "more modern trains" might mean.  They are also keenly aware that the Island line loses significant amounts of money and is unlikely to become profitable.  In short it does not stack up for the usual investment criteria even if superannuated 1973 stock were released from the Piccadilly Line.  The Bakerloo Line 1972 stock is slightly older but the '73 stock is expected to be replaced first by the under-development future tube train design. In other words London trains are not coming to the IoW any time soon.

[Glorious NSE]

The sheer number of additional "seats", however these are arranged, to and from Waterloo has me asking where the track capacity will come from.  Some additional platform capacity will be created this August with 1-4 extended to 10 cars and the former International station is being returned to suburban use.  But beyond the station there is still a finite amount of track capacity and longer trains take longer to clear the sections and critical pointwork and platforms.  It isn;t clear (to me - have I missed something?) whether these additional seats are in fact additional over and above the 10-car scheme already being introduced under the SWT franchise or are they even more?  If the former then this is misleading propaganda because these increases have already been announced and work is well under way to deliver them.  As passengers on the Windsor lines and some main line stopping services have already noticed.

 

 

Wonder if you can gain many paths by cutting all fast line Clapham Junction calls?

 

Rubbish for connectivity, but it might be positive in terms of flow of trains, especially with the sloooow approach to the loop inbound?

[Dunsignalling]

Presumably there are places around the country that have single-crewed trains and un-staffed stations. Is the above how things operate there? Our Coastway services, running east and west out of Brighton, still have two crew, whatever their respective functions are. The guard/conductor/OBS still has to sell tickets and check them as unstaffed stations have no barriers. Who does that on single crewed trains? Since the DOO dispute has been going on there have been far fewer ticket checks as staff understandably want to minimize contact with disgruntled passengers. I have been to London and back and on some occasions had no on-board ticket inspections at all. When the extensive bustitution of the Seaford branch was going on there were hardly any checks on the buses by SR staff so plenty of free trips were taken - not by me of course!

Is it significant that there is almost no mention of station staff or the requirements of disability access and support in any of the publications mentioned in this thread? I would really like to see some of the big disability and elderly people's organisations get stuck into the accessibility and customer care issues. Clearly the new franchise holders don't see it as an issue. Smart phone apps aren't everyone's ideal method of communication either.

If there are, the practise should presumably become illegal when DDA comes into force but whether that has been factored into these franchise policies is uncertain.

 

My expectation is that all trains should have a Guard or OBS to provide assistance unless all the stations served are manned. 

 

No doubt the bean counters will be busily trying to work out if it is cheaper to man stations or trains. 

 

On DOO trains I have ridden on, ticket checks are performed by roving squads of RPIs who get on, blitz the train then get off to join another. 

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Refitting the DMU fleet in the same way as the EMT 158s would not far off double the number of seats I think. Current SWT 158s (don't know about the 159s) have around 40 seats per car on average. The EMT ones have near on 70 seats per car on average

SWT 159s have a total of 196 seats per 3-car set, 24 First and 172 Standard. If First were abolished, seated capacity could probably be increased by 16 or 20 overall. 

 

However, given that First Class occupancy (at least when I'm travelling) seldom nears 50%, the increase in available standard accommodation would be very noticeable. 

 

John

Edited March 27, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Zomboid]

First is pretty well used on those services, I can't see that they'd ditch it on the Bournemouth & Exeter routes. Basingstoke/ Alton/ Reading perhaps.

 

Who knows though.