What was the roughest riding locomotive a driver could have

[Southof1E top tmd]

Class 81 - 85 were reportedly lively riders at speed. Whilst not funny for the driver of the 0817 Northampton - Euston "Cobbler" in Oct 88, 81004 was riding rough as the drivers seat collapsed! as she passed Denbigh hall jn, North of Bletchley. 85014 assisted forward in a most unusual loco "failure"!!

 

NR

[pH]

Why were the 47s (and some other diesel classes) cabs so draughty?  Compared to a steam locomotive, where the cab is open to the elements, (admittedly with a roaring fire at the front) surely a diesel cab is a sealed box with doors and windows. 

 

Was it just bad build quality, like British cars of a similar vintage?

 

It wasn't just British diesels that were draughty. I read an article by an engineer on a big US railroad (SP or Santa Fe size) which said that essential items in a crew's winter kit were paper towels. They would be soaked in water and crammed into all the gaps round the cab windows, where they would then freeze and provide some measure of weatherstripping.

[Baby Deltic]

Apparently one of the most comfortable and smooth riding locomotive types was the NBL class 21.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Apparently one of the most comfortable and smooth riding locomotive types was the NBL class 21.

 

Probably because it was stationary most of the time

[fozzy280472]

I love these type of threads , so much insider information, I like reading all about the bits of railway operation that are not usually made public. Please keep them stories coming.

[The Stationmaster]

Apparently one of the most comfortable and smooth riding locomotive types was the NBL class 21.

 

I did Mailaig to Fort William and back to Morar on one many years ago (well it would have been a long time ago obviously  ) and it wasn't a bad ride at all but then it was hardly at high speed so I don't know how they'd have faired at speed and on ropey track.

[GordonC]

I did Mailaig to Fort William and back to Morar on one many years ago (well it would have been a long time ago obviously  ) and it wasn't a bad ride at all but then it was hardly at high speed so I don't know how they'd have faired at speed and on ropey track.

 

I cant imagine it was the smoothest or best maintained of track either away out there!!

[PM47079]

47s had a built in wind tunnel under the buffer cowls, they were ******* draughty till the cowls were remover and the holes all plated over.  

 

The Leeds driver with the bin bag ( Mr Morley) was driving one of the draughtiest 47s I ever rode on.

 

Al Taylor.

Definatly agree with that,! The buffer beam cowling scooped up the air and directed it up your trouser leg. The thing with the 47 was the heaters were behind you and were ok and you had little foot warmers that were not man enough in front of you. The horn grille used to let in a nice bit of breeze on top of your head and the drop lights could be drafty as well. Tinsley put little fans on 47205s rear heaters to push the air forward as an experiment. It helped a little. 47079 had expanding foam shoved into the space between the cab desk and cab front. Most not all had the horn grille aperture made smaller and it was secured better in the cab. It wasn't until Freightliner had the cab on 47270 refurbished that the drafts were totally gone. Heaters at the front,a false ceiling and screens behind the drivers seats. The buffer beam cowling mod again was done on most locos and it did help up to a point.

[rodent279]

I used to ride the MPV's a fair bit doing leaf fall duties and didn't find them that bad and I was usually on the jump seat or standing. Bit bouncy at times but not as violent as the locos I've ridden. I'm sure I lost an inch in height in my last trip on a 47 on a test train. Only after we bottomed out at 'ahem' mph did my friendly driver mention the second mans seat was a bit broken.

Gronks out on the mainline must be bad as two EWS drivers once had to take the Quidhampton shunter back to Eastleigh to swap it over and by the time they got back to Salisbury they were walking funny and moaning a lot

 

Don't all EWS drivers walk funny & moan a lot? ;-)

[Liam]

Don't all EWS drivers walk funny & moan a lot? ;-)

I seem to recall a few years ago reading about a driver for Scotrail (then owned by First) was arrested and possibly imprisoned for about to take a train away from Edinburgh with a high quantity of alcohol inside him. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by SVRlad

[APOLLO]

There was a Leeds man doing that on a 47 on some early 90s BBC documentary

 

This one

 

 

Brit15

[anroar53]

By design, not because of a fault, but you often hear of certain locomotives having a poor reputation for their riding.

 

The one that always springs to mind for me, from watching them speed through my local station, was the class 86, before the flexicoil springs were fitted.

 

By heaven they could pitch and roll and did you wonder what they were doing to the drivers, not to mention the track.

Surprised that the Midland 4F hasn't been mentioned? My Father was based at Kentish Town 14B from pre-nationalisation days until it closed. He had a loathing of these locos, 43964 in particular. Kentish Town had a small stud of these locos primarily for workings over the London Tilbury & Southend lines. At the end of the 1940s they were fitted with the early Strowger-Hudd prototype AWS, which the LTS had been equipped with. The 4Fs therefore became the 'weapon of choice' for LTS work, including the St. Pancras to Tilbury Boat trains. Although a true 'dyed in the wool' Midland Man he rated the 4F the worst of all the locos (Steam and Diesel) he ever worked on. Rostered on an LTS turn with one of these would fill him with dread, with the thoughts of the extreme discomfort to come. Even when freshly shopped he said the motion between the engine and tender would loosen every bone in your body. Coupled with the side to side wobble, and a tendency to 'nod' on some stretches of track made things lively. Often paired with a young 'passed cleaner' doing the firing he would tell them when to put a bit more coal on at 'quieter' moments, to avoid the footplate becoming ankle deep in 'coal that missed the hole'. When on freight turns there were frequent signal stops, and no matter how gently you handled them they would tend to 'kick' quite violently when starting off. He wasn't alone in his opinions, and it wasn't unknown for some un-authorised tampering to take place with the Engine Arrangements Board, taking even a high mileage Black 5 in preference to the designated 4F. The Shed Foreman got wise to this, and would often be found near the Board when 'Tilbury' crews were booking on. When the 24/27s arrived in the early 1960s and displaced the last of the few 4Fs on the Tilbury workings he was never so happy. He often said, 'If you could endure a day with a 4F everything else was luxury by comparison'.

 

Andy.

[LMS2968]

I have to say that I've heard a lot of negative comment about 4Fs but rough riding - as in rougher than usual - hasn't been one. Uncomfortable footplates was a common grievance: there was little space between engine and tender to swing the shovel, and it also meant the driver's 'seat' was a board perched on top of the reverser. It even had a longitudinal slot in it to allow the cut-off setting to be seen.

 

That was a very informative post.

[rodent279]

Following on from this, what were the noisiest locos, from the driver's perspective?

[LMS2968]

I believe that Class 24s were in a league of their own from a noise point of view.

 

I heard a story - I wasn't involved so can'r verify it - of a class 24 working a Settle and Carlisle goods in place of a failed Class 4. It was therefore very overloaded. The second man, somewhere around Settle station, told the driver he was nipping through to the back cab as he'd left his lunch there. The driver warned him not to, but he reckoned he'd be alright and would stay in the back cab once there. Inevitably, as soon as the second man had entered the engine room, the driver heard the radiator slats open so the fans were now drawing in masses of air, and pressurising the engine room. The doors at each end opened inwards to the engine room, so the pressure prevented their being opened while the slats were open. The driver, who had the engine wound up to maximum, could not ease down due to the overload, but even so speed gradually fell to little over walking pace, so the climb took quite a lot longer than usual. Once through Blea Moor Tunnel, speed started to pick up again but the driver still couldn't ease off until they were on the down grade from Ais Gill. By that time, the temperature was very high and the slats remained open almost all the way to Carlisle.

 

It was some time before the second man could hear again!

[Titan]

I believe that Class 24s were in a league of their own from a noise point of view.

 

I heard a story - I wasn't involved so can'r verify it - of a class 24 working a Settle and Carlisle goods in place of a failed Class 4. It was therefore very overloaded. The second man, somewhere around Settle station, told the driver he was nipping through to the back cab as he'd left his lunch there. The driver warned him not to, but he reckoned he'd be alright and would stay in the back cab once there. Inevitably, as soon as the second man had entered the engine room, the driver heard the radiator slats open so the fans were now drawing in masses of air, and pressurising the engine room. The doors at each end opened inwards to the engine room, so the pressure prevented their being opened while the slats were open. The driver, who had the engine wound up to maximum, could not ease down due to the overload, but even so speed gradually fell to little over walking pace, so the climb took quite a lot longer than usual. Once through Blea Moor Tunnel, speed started to pick up again but the driver still couldn't ease off until they were on the down grade from Ais Gill. By that time, the temperature was very high and the slats remained open almost all the way to Carlisle.

 

It was some time before the second man could hear again!

To be fair trapped in any diesel locomotives engine room whilst running flat out is hardly going to be quiet!

[pheaton]

I believe that Class 24s were in a league of their own from a noise point of view.

 

I heard a story - I wasn't involved so can'r verify it - of a class 24 working a Settle and Carlisle goods in place of a failed Class 4. It was therefore very overloaded. The second man, somewhere around Settle station, told the driver he was nipping through to the back cab as he'd left his lunch there. The driver warned him not to, but he reckoned he'd be alright and would stay in the back cab once there. Inevitably, as soon as the second man had entered the engine room, the driver heard the radiator slats open so the fans were now drawing in masses of air, and pressurising the engine room. The doors at each end opened inwards to the engine room, so the pressure prevented their being opened while the slats were open. The driver, who had the engine wound up to maximum, could not ease down due to the overload, but even so speed gradually fell to little over walking pace, so the climb took quite a lot longer than usual. Once through Blea Moor Tunnel, speed started to pick up again but the driver still couldn't ease off until they were on the down grade from Ais Gill. By that time, the temperature was very high and the slats remained open almost all the way to Carlisle.

 

It was some time before the second man could hear again!

Cant have been a 24 im afraid they dont have radiator slats, and also the radiators are in a sealed glass fibre board unit from the engine room, with a central walkway and an electric fan, so it takes no input from the engine like say a 37/20 or a serck controlled fan like a 33/47/46, the only loco that might do as you describe is a 37 or a 50, and the only loco with automatically controlled slats is a 50, a 37 they are manually controlled.

[LMS2968]

That's the story as I remember it, but it was from about 45 years ago so might be a bit adrift on the detail. I bow to your superior knowledge; my knowledge of diesels was never intensive.

 

I did always wonder at the veracity of the tale, though, but thought it had entertainment value so worth repeating!

[jamie92208]

That's the story as I remember it, but it was from about 45 years ago so might be a bit adrift on the detail. I bow to your superior knowledge; my knowledge of diesels was never intensive.

 

I did always wonder at the veracity of the tale, though, but thought it had entertainment value so worth repeating!

 

It could possibly have been a 50, the first 4 or five did their testing on a circuit fro Crew to Carlisle and return, D400 to 404 I think.   The test train was 19 maroon coaches so would be a heavy load. The tests were in the last couple of years of steam.

 

Jamie

Edited June 20, 2017 by jamie92208

[kevinlms]

Following on from this, what were the noisiest locos, from the driver's perspective?

A bit off topic, but when I visited the US in 1985, I managed to get a cab ride on a 3 truck Shay.  Now that was noisy! Due to the design the drive works vertically onto the geared wheels.

 

So you were rattling along, making a racket, yet doing little more than a fast walking pace!

 

Sorry, I can't find it on the web, but it was in a timber village in Washington state, I think.

[russ p]

Class 66s are noisey in the cabs far louder than a modern loco should be. Quite ironic from a loco that hardly makes any noise outside

37s are fairly loud in number one cab with the fan and compressors banging away in the nose end

[runs as required]

This is an absorbing thread that had me sitting up late last night to finish.

Mention of 4Fs as bad riders reminds me that as schoolboys dawdling down to school, we would stop to watch Derby-Manchester expresses tear across New Mills viaduct en route via Disley tunnel to Manchester Central.

It always astonished me how dangerous 2Ps looked hurtling under the overbridge below Swizzels toffee mill. By comparison the competing crabs running from Buxton to Manchester London Road racing under Newtown's long footbridge swept by steadily leaving us wreathed in warm wet steam.

 

I always assumed it was to do with how overdue for overhaul the locos were.

 

Back to the 4Fs - was that why E S Cox and co. argued for 2-6-0s? The other lines, e.g. the GW seemed content enough with 0-6-0s.

Always as passengers in the first coach behind 2 cylinder GW locos, one experienced pronounced fore and aft surges.

 

dh

[LMS2968]

The Crabs had their own peculiar ride qualities. At low speeds those big outside cylinders tended to throw the back end from side to side; this sideways movement is one of the reasons why they were called Crabs. As speed rose, they settled down to a reasonably comfortable ride, until about 60mph was reached, after which they became progressively livelier.

[jim.snowdon]

 

Back to the 4Fs - was that why E S Cox and co. argued for 2-6-0s? The other lines, e.g. the GW seemed content enough with 0-6-0s.

Always as passengers in the first coach behind 2 cylinder GW locos, one experienced pronounced fore and aft surges.

 

dh

On the GW, Churchward would not contemplate a loco of any size without either a leading bogie or pony truck to provide guidance. In 20th century terms, any locos without these were all either carried over from the 19th century, or from the Collett era.

 

The other sensible reason for 2-6-0s is that they are essentially outside cylinder locomotives, which makes them easier and cheaper to maintain, as well as imposing lower forces on the driving axleboxes. The concept was ultimately epitomised by the Ivatt class 2 & 4 2-6-0s - two cylinders, with everything on the outside. The puzzle is why Stanier simply carried on building the Midland 4F, with all its defects.

 

Jim

[Killian keane]

I suppose an engine with vertical cylinders and no springs, Hackworths 0-6-0 goods engines spring to mind, just look at Wilberforce and Coronation with their cylinders either side of the cab driving a jackshaft, slow beasts they may have been, but even at 20-25mph they must have rattled a driver or two!! (probably why there has been no replica--- hint hint!)