issue regarding disabled passengers

[Fenman]

...

Where things went wrong with the UK's interpretation of the PRM directive is that the activists in the disabled lobby were allowed to run riot, resulting in excessive requirements, rather than taking a balanced approach.

 

It's a long running problem. I was once lucky enough to work in a glorious Grade 1 listed building. At one point we were being threatened by the local authority with a big fine if we didn't install a wheelchair ramp at our front door, and by English Heritage with another big fine if we *did* install such a ramp.

 

Paul

[caradoc]

Perhaps I may summarise the situation on my local route, Glasgow Central/Neilston (which has been DOO for almost 30 years) to illustrate how things work in practice:

 

Glasgow Central has level access and is staffed continuously when trains are running.

Mount Florida, Muirend, Whitecraigs and Neilston have level access and are staffed, but not continuously.

Patterton has level access but is totally unstaffed. 

Pollokshields East, Queens Park, Crosshill, Cathcart and Williamwood have step access only.

 

Therefore, of the 11 stations on the route, at one wheelchairs can access trains at all times, whether the train has a second person on board or not; At 5 stations, wheelchairs can access trains if someone is available with a ramp; And at 5 stations wheelchairs cannot access trains at all.

Also, last week I happened to use Cholsey station, and had to assist a lady with a (heavy) pushchair down the stairs; This is yet another location totally inaccessible to wheelchair users.

 

I agree absolutely that wheelchair users (and in fact anyone with impaired mobility) should have every possible opportunity to use public transport, however there are limits on what can reasonably be provided; Illustrated recently in another form of public transport when a bus had room for a pram, or a wheelchair, but not both. As far as access to trains is concerned, if a ramp is required the person to assist with this can equally be staff on the station or on the train; The latter does not have to be a guard. The key issue I think with DOO is that unless staff are available at all stations, a second person must be rostered aboard the train, however if that person is not available due to unforeseen circumstances the train should still run.

[jjb1970]

It's a long running problem. I was once lucky enough to work in a glorious Grade 1 listed building. At one point we were being threatened by the local authority with a big fine if we didn't install a wheelchair ramp at our front door, and by English Heritage with another big fine if we *did* install such a ramp.

 

Paul

 

At least it is not just a British problem, I spent 18 months working for the EC on a problem made much worse by different Euro Directives containing conflicting demands that meant you could comply with one but not the other and each Directorate claiming it was the others problem.

[tamperman36]

as I have already mentioned there could be a simple answer if new rolling stock was designed and built with ramps fitted much like the modern buses with hydraulic ramps, these could be deployed by the driver from a control within the cab.

[Gerald Henriksen]

The new trains built for the new Brightline train service in Florida come with automatic ramps at each door, picture seen in this article:

 

http://sfbwmag.com/2017/01/brightline-unveils-cool-new-trains/

 

Time will tell what the reliability is like.

[Dunsignalling]

Perhaps I may summarise the situation on my local route, Glasgow Central/Neilston (which has been DOO for almost 30 years) to illustrate how things work in practice:

 

Glasgow Central has level access and is staffed continuously when trains are running.

Mount Florida, Muirend, Whitecraigs and Neilston have level access and are staffed, but not continuously.

Patterton has level access but is totally unstaffed. 

Pollokshields East, Queens Park, Crosshill, Cathcart and Williamwood have step access only.

 

Therefore, of the 11 stations on the route, at one wheelchairs can access trains at all times, whether the train has a second person on board or not; At 5 stations, wheelchairs can access trains if someone is available with a ramp; And at 5 stations wheelchairs cannot access trains at all.

Also, last week I happened to use Cholsey station, and had to assist a lady with a (heavy) pushchair down the stairs; This is yet another location totally inaccessible to wheelchair users.

 

I agree absolutely that wheelchair users (and in fact anyone with impaired mobility) should have every possible opportunity to use public transport, however there are limits on what can reasonably be provided; Illustrated recently in another form of public transport when a bus had room for a pram, or a wheelchair, but not both. As far as access to trains is concerned, if a ramp is required the person to assist with this can equally be staff on the station or on the train; The latter does not have to be a guard. The key issue I think with DOO is that unless staff are available at all stations, a second person must be rostered aboard the train, however if that person is not available due to unforeseen circumstances the train should still run.

I agree with nearly all of that, but the realist/cynic in me sees a problem with the last bit. 

 

"Unforeseen circumstances" provides a rather elastic get-out for the TOC and to ensure it doesn't get used "creatively" maybe there should be a significant financial penalty levied for any train that is run unstaffed. Less than for cancelling a train, but enough to discourage malpractice. 

 

John

[Edwin_m]

An automatically deployed ramp could be hazardous to people waiting on the platform when it deploys, or if it retracts while someone is using it.  This is more of a problem on a train than on a bus, where the ramp will be close to the driver who can ensure it is safe before operating it. 

 

The new trains for Merseyrail will have level boarding from a standard height platform and I believe some sort of bridging plate that extends to fill the platform to train gap.  The regional trains for Anglia will be from the same basic design and I believe have the level boarding but maybe not the bridging plate.  Heathrow Express and London Overground have raised some platforms to the height of the unit floor (about 1.1m) so have level boarding without ramps at those stations, and Crossrail will do the same, but this solution fouls the gauge so is not possible at platforms where freight trains pass. 

[Mark Saunders]

[quote name="Edwin_m" post="2691576"

 

The new trains for Merseyrail will have level boarding from a standard height platform

 

Tyne & Wear Metro achieved this in 1979 with DOO operations and no Station Staff!

 

Mark Saunders

[Edwin_m]

Tyne & Wear Metro achieved this in 1979 with DOO operations and no Station Staff!

 

Mark Saunders

As do all the tram networks and the DLR.  Looking at the standards Metro apparently achieves this by having floor level(ish) with a 900mm platform, at which height the Network Rail gauge is less than the 2.65m with of a Metrocar.  It's more difficult for the national network as most trains have a floor height of about 1.1m and have to cope with curved platforms. 

[Edge]

Another factor in train travel that is often overlooked (especially in debates such as these) is that a great number of passengers oftentimes DO book the assistance and help that they require, which doesn't turn up.  

 

I travel frequently with a disabled passenger, and the number of times that I have had to hang out of a passenger door looking desperately for a member of staff with a ramp who isn't there at all despite all due notice (called to book before journey, told staff at dispatching station when we were getting on train, told guard on train) beggars belief. On occasion, both me and my wheelchair bound friend have been sworn at by station staff for daring to ask for the privilege of being allowed to leave the train at our destination. And lord forbid the idea that she might want to get anywhere without registering in advance (something which I frankly see as both stupid and barbaric)

 

Amazingly enough, the more rural and quiet the line the better the assistance is. Places like Reading, Clapham Junct. (where I had to actually hold back a platform staff member who was howling abuse at my wheelchair bound friend) and London are all nightmares. Ravenglass, Barmouth, Porthmadog and indeed every Steam Railway we have visited has been a dream by comparison.

[Mike Riley]

An automatically deployed ramp could be hazardous to people waiting on the platform when it deploys, or if it retracts while someone is using it.  This is more of a problem on a train than on a bus, where the ramp will be close to the driver who can ensure it is safe before operating it. 

 

 

 

On London buses the ramp is on the middle door - where passengers get off.  If the ramp is requested, the driver waits for any passengers to get off, closes the door, extends the ramp (which beeps in the process to warn people) and re-opens the door.  Wheelchair alights, ramp is retracted and door closed (or maybe the reverse in that case, I forget).  The driver's only view of the ramp is in the outside mirror.  And while this is going on, the driver is checking that any alighting passengers ping their oyster card.

 

If it can work on a bus in central London why not on trains?

 

Mike

[mcowgill]

The regional trains for Anglia will be from the same basic design and I believe have the level boarding but maybe not the bridging plate. 

 

I think they may need to have some form of extending step on Greater Anglia, the Stadler Flirts have a single entrance at the mid-point of the carriage which could leave a large gap on curved platforms.

 

Martin

[phil-b259]

I think they may need to have some form of extending step on Greater Anglia, the Stadler Flirts have a single entrance at the mid-point of the carriage which could leave a large gap on curved platforms.

 

Martin

 

Please be careful about making assumptions over door positions - the Stadler 'Flirt' is not a single train, it is a family of trains with a variety of possible configurations available to the purchaser. Equally be wary of 'artist impressions - they do not always actually accurately reflect what may actually be produced, many of those relating to the Anglia order seemingly being catalogue illustrations given a UKish makeover.

 

With the Anglia fleet (or indeed UK trains in general given how busy they get) station dwell time is critical - and as such the trend is to have more (and wider*) doors, not less so as to keep platform occupancy to a minimum in critical areas. As such I fond it hard to believe that any train on the Anglia fleet will have a single door per carriage.

[Zomboid]

The new trains built for the new Brightline train service in Florida come with automatic ramps at each door, picture seen in this article:

 

http://sfbwmag.com/2017/01/brightline-unveils-cool-new-trains/

 

Time will tell what the reliability is like.

In the UK we have very similar arrangements with 390s having retractable steps. It's not a huge leap to change that into a ramp - technologically, at least.

It does add to door operation, and hence dwell times, so the impact on suburban trains may be noticeable.