LNWR 1,800 gall Tender - Water Pickup details.

[Penlan]

Does anybody have a photo of a 1,800 gall LNWR Tender that shows the water pick-up scoop and it's related gear.

 

This is most likely to be a photo of a tender up-side down after a crash.

There's tender drawings in Ted Talbot's 'An Illustrated History of LNWR Engines' and it's evident there's some large chunks of metal holding the pick-up gear in place, but what do they look like?

 

Edit - There is the view of a tender at Preston in the late 1890's, but the photo I've seen is a copy of a copy of a.....

Edited April 19, 2017 by Penlan

[Argos]

Hi Penlan, 

 

I've an inkling I've seen one somewhere.

 

Let me do some digging and see what I can find.

[Penlan]

Let me do some digging and see what I can find.

Thank you, in some ways the end on view is not dis-similar to a 1920's rear axle differential enclosure - as I happen to have a couple of relevant Austin's.    

[Jol Wilkinson]

Sandy,

 

have you tried an enquiry through the LNWR Society? I have had a quick search but nothing suitable turned up but an enquiry through the forum might work.

 

I have a scanned GA of the 2500 gallon tender but the quality is too poor to work out what is what for the details of the scoop mechanism.

 

Jol

[Argos]

Hi Pelan,

 

I've found the photo I was thinking of:-

 

 

Unfortunately it is not much help as, despite the elevated position, the underside of the tender is still in heavy shadow.

There is a better picture in the L&NWR Society Journal Vol 6 Number 4 page 30.

Some of the underside is more discernible.

 

As the victim is an un-rebuilt coal engine, I suspect the tender is a 1,500 gallon version.

That said, I believe these were quite similar to the 1,800 gallon versions, the later just having slightly taller tanks to increase the volume?

 

I have a faint recollection I've seen a photo of tender on its side somewhere.

 

I'll keep digging.

[Edwardian]

These any help?

[Penlan]

These any help?

Many thanks, but I have both those, the Preston photo, I know in the past I've seen a clearer copy of this, I could almost read the District name on the brake Van in the background.  The original may well be at NRM, though I may have seen it at Kew long ago.

 

As you will see on the drawing there's a substantial 'mass' around the water scoop area.  I'm not sure how the linkage worked, but the water forces on the scoop must have been substantial when lowering, picking up and withdrawal from the water.  

 

Of course none of this will be seen once it's on the layout, but I like to know.

 

What I hadn't realised, if I've understood the drawings correctly is the brake pull rods only pull the front two sets of brake shoes onto the wheels, the rear pair are pushed.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Penlan

[Crewe North]

Does anybody have a photo of a 1,800 gall LNWR Tender that shows the water pick-up scoop and it's related gear.

 

This is most likely to be a photo of a tender up-side down after a crash.

There's tender drawings in Ted Talbot's 'An Illustrated History of LNWR Engines' and it's evident there's some large chunks of metal holding the pick-up gear in place, but what do they look like?

 

Edit - There is the view of a tender at Preston in the late 1890's, but the photo I've seen is a copy of a copy of a.....

 

Hi,

 

PM sent

 

John

[Penlan]

Thank you, most helpful - or as they say way down west "Proper Job That".

[LooseHead]

Bit late joining in this conversation, I'm afraid, and it looks like John has satisfied your immediate query, but if others are interested Jack Nelson provides a general diagram of Webb's waterscoop arrangement at Chapter 8 (drawings 8-5 and 8-6) of his 'LNWR Portrayed'. He also explains why the forces involved in lowering/raising the counter-balanced scoop might not be as great as imagined, because the rail level 'dipped' at the start of the troughs (until water level was 2" above rail level), then rose (temporarily) at the end of them to left the scoop clear of the water. The handwheel/screw arrangement of LNWR tenders also gave the fireman a decent mechanical advantage - I believe (but stand to be corrected) some lesser lines used a simple level arrangement.

[Penlan]

.... Jack Nelson provides a general diagram of Webb's waterscoop arrangement at Chapter 8 (drawings 8-5 and 8-6) of his 'LNWR Portrayed'. ....

The handwheel/screw arrangement of LNWR tenders also gave the fireman a decent mechanical advantage - I believe (but stand to be corrected) some lesser lines used a simple level arrangement.

First, how come I missed that, I have the book, I got it from Jack as well in 1975.... Oh dear, nearly 42 years ago.

However, you do 'stand to be corrected', the hand wheel was for the brakes, the lever, or pull rod as shown in drawing 8-5, was exactly that for the water scoop, there was also a foot pedal under the pull rod to release / raise the scoop by the counter balance weight - and a spring I believe.

But many thanks for bringing the book to my attention.

[Argos]

Hi Penlan,

 

I've just read this quarter's LNWR Society Journal received yesterday.

 

There is an article on water troughs and a couple of photos of the water scoop apparatus in a tender.

 

I'll scan the article and PM it across to you tomorrow.

 

Hope it is of some use.

[Argos]

Hi Penlan,

 

PM sent with the article.

 

For the record if anyone is looking for details of the LNWR water scoop The L&NWR Society Journal Volume 8 Number 9 (June 2017) has two photos of the water scope (front and rear) as present on a preserved tender. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi Penlan,

 

PM sent with the article.

 

For the record if anyone is looking for details of the LNWR water scoop The L&NWR Society Journal Volume 8 Number 9 (June 2017) has two photos of the water scope (front and rear) as present on a preserved tender. 

That will be the tender attached to Hardwicke. AFAIK it is the only one in existence.

 

The photos contain some useful information, especially about the pivot support brackets for the lower part of the scoop and the rods running forward and upwards from these, presumably to take the force of water against the scoop when it is lowered. There is also what looks like a circular balance weight on the scoop operating arm.

 

The overall shape of the scoop is captured well in the LRM (ev Geo. Norton) kit for the LNWR 1800 and 2000 gallon tenders, but they don't have the details of the pivot castings. I have a scanned copy of the GA for the 2500 gallon tender, but the detail is unclear as there is so much shown in this area and the drawing/scan is not very good. I can now see what the angled rods do and where they attach, but can't make out the rest of the detail with any clarity.

 

Edited to add;

 

I have just started a 2000g tender for a Jubilee and may try to work out how to represent the pivot brackets and support rods.The operating linkage and scoop are included in the kit.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Jol Wilkinson

[Penlan]

Jol, it was/is LRM's 2,000 gall tender I was working on, for my Dreadnought.
As you rightly say, the GA's a 'lotta lines', so the pictures are good, also the photo 'Crewe North' directed me to in the 'Railway Photographs of P.W.Pilcher', page 86 - An excellent book, especially if modelling anything that's connected (eventually) with Shrewsbury. 

 

I had a look at one of my tenders I built about 40 years ago, and I see I had made a reasonable bodge of the scoop works then, why had I forgotten that, so I must have had the details from either Jack Nelson or more likely Jim Richards, though all those notes and sketches were 'lost' some 25 years ago......  The only Jim Richards note(s) I have left now is for the 21' twin gas wagon - There was one allocated to Swansea, I believe.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Sandy,

 

the one book I haven't looked in is the LNWRS Portfolio of Bill Finches Drawibgs for his 5" gauge Miranda. I'll dig that out, as it may have something.

 

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

Page 49 of the LNWRS Bill Finch Portfolio has a drawing of the pick up parts in question, I don't know why I didn't think of it earlier.

 

The isometric drawings gives some dimensions but would need to be used in conjunction with the tender GA.

 

Bill Finch researched both Hardwicke and the Cola Tank to get information for his 5" gauge Jumbo "Miranda", one of finest built. The Portfolio is still available from the LNWR Society. For copyright reasons I don't think it would be correct to scan and post the drawings in question here.

[Penlan]

Jol, the one book I haven't got is Bil Finch's Portfolio, or I can't find, probably nestled next to the Birmingham New Street Books.
Agree re. not posting material that may be copyright.