Mk2 Pullmans

[daveyb]

Looking at Vitalspark's pics on the AC Electric pics thread, here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/113910-photos-of-ac-electrics/page-28 I notice the Mk2 Air Con stock painted in Pullman blue and white has standard outward opening doors.  What happened to the early Mk2 Pullman stock with the inward opening doors that I can vaguely recall from the Manchester Pullman days in Euston when I was in my early years (they were in the grey and blue inverted standard colours)?   

 

There seems to be many pics and much info on the Metro Cammell Mk1 Pullmans but much less on the Mk2s...

 

[stovepipe]

The grey and blue mk2s were repainted into IC livery around 1983, and withdrawn from Mainline service a few years later. About half had asbestos issues and were progressively taken out of service from 1986. The survivors were moved to the IC charter fleet in 1987 and then eventually to the WCRC charter train fleet, where they still find use today. Around 10 survive compared to 30 of the MK1 Met-Cam Pullmans.

Edited June 6, 2017 by stovepipe

[daveyb]

Thanks, Stovepipe,

 

That asbestos was a nutty problem...

 

D

[Merfyn Jones]

At Blaenau Ffestiniog last month.

 

 

[Edwin_m]

The OP picture is dated 2006 on the link so this is the "blue Pullman" rake repainted by Fragonset (I think), normal Mk2s rather than the Mk2-ish specials for the Liverpool and Manchester Pullmans (Pullmen?).  One of them was in the NRM last time I looked, which seems an odd choice given that it's a non-standard livery best known for being applied to other stock. 

[phixer64]

Not my pic, do you mean these

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barry_oxhey/5303035379

 

Regards Jeff

[bennyboy]

I've always wondered just how similar were they to standard MK2s? I know the doors and the windows were different, but was the bodyshell the same basic shape and did they use the same bogies and underframe equipment etc?

[Titan]

I've always wondered just how similar were they to standard MK2s? I know the doors and the windows were different, but was the bodyshell the same basic shape and did they use the same bogies and underframe equipment etc?

 

They were built at the same time as the very first MK2s, so I would expect so. Like the first Mk2s they were vacuum brake only, and remained so for their entire career. Hence could not be hauled by class 87.

[stovepipe]

They were built at the same time as the very first MK2s, so I would expect so. Like the first Mk2s they were vacuum brake only, and remained so for their entire career. Hence could not be hauled by class 87.

 

Not quite true - the first Mk2s were the FKs of which 72 were built from 1963/4, prior to the Mk2 Pullmans in 1966. Also the remaining 10 cars were air-braked in 1987 ready for their use in the IC Charter business.

 

I've always wondered just how similar were they to standard MK2s? I know the doors and the windows were different, but was the bodyshell the same basic shape and did they use the same bogies and underframe equipment etc?

 

There were a few differences - the seating pitch was more generous than the Mk2 FOs and FKs, and as such there were only six windows per side on the Parlour Cars, instead of the more usual seven. The toilets were larger too, and although the body was the same length as the early Mk2s, this is a few inches shorter than the later air-con Mk2d-fs. The air-con was supplied by Stones which of course no Mk2 had until 1971. They originally had venetian blinds and clear glass in the windows, this changed to tinted glass and curtains when refurbished in 1974/5.

 

Just to clarify on the asbestos issue - 15 were built with asbestos insulation and 14 without. After the Liverpool Pullman finished in 1975, 7 cars were stored and not refurbished. Of the 22 remaining, 12 had asbestos insulation and these were taken out of service in 1987 to comply with legislation. The 10 remaining are still with us - 1 brake, 2 kitchen, and 7 parlours all refurbished in 1987 and again in 1991 when they were modified to allow heating by diesel locomotives for the first time.

[stovepipe]

Couple of nice pictures showing PC and PK in original condition.

 

https://flic.kr/p/UjcCa5

https://flic.kr/p/T9eT8c

[bennyboy]

Couple of nice pictures showing PC and PK in original condition.

 

https://flic.kr/p/UjcCa5

https://flic.kr/p/T9eT8c

 

I notice that there seems to be a dividing bar in the windows that doesn't seem to there in their later years, I wonder if that was because of the venetian blinds that you mentioned?

[mark54]

I've always wondered just how similar were they to standard MK2s? I know the doors and the windows were different, but was the bodyshell the same basic shape and did they use the same bogies and underframe equipment etc?

The body-side profile of the Pullmans is supposed to be slightly flatter than the standard Mk2 profile.

[stovepipe]

I notice that there seems to be a dividing bar in the windows that doesn't seem to there in their later years, I wonder if that was because of the venetian blinds that you mentioned?

Yes that's right, it was some kind of guide between the panes of glass. You can see the two blinds per window on the 3rd window from the far end on the second picture link above.

[47164]

From the photos, would it be correct in interpreting the roofs as being painted blue for a short stretch and then the remainder standard dark grey ? .. (a modelling question as I have some to build).

[daveyb]

Those pics are all the coaches that I was referring.

 

The details above regarding the profile and the windows interlink I believe, the larger windows (than the c,d & f) giving a flatter view which is broken up by the framing of the z,a,b&c.  The blue 'end caps' on the roof seem to have been used on all the z, a, b & c coaches at different times (just by a trawl of internet pics) but I don't remember them ever being clean enough to notice it at the time!

 

Stovepipe, was the asbestos issue splitting the fleet simply the change in production processes at the time or were these coaches batch built?

 

Good info so far, thanks to all.

[stovepipe]

The former, BR instructed that blue asbestos was not to be used on any future builds part way through manufacture. They were built at Derby under consecutive lot numbers and presumably there were three parallel production lines for there to be examples of each without asbestos.