GWR Bullion wagon

[bertiedog]

A kit in need of TLC, a bogied GWR Bullion wagon, complete from photos, said by seller to be 00 gauge, a kit by "Jeremy Dennis". Looks like aluminium or resin parts, lost wax buffers, at present removed.

 

The mystery is the gauge, looks like P4 Gibson wheels to me, or EM, but that is not 00 gauge. The bogies look compensated to a degree, but no brake shoes. they appear to be white metal.

 

Any body know about this brand of kits? Looks easy to restore from the shots....

 

 

Whole item was £5 plus P&P, not bad fr even the P4 wheel set!

 

Stephen

[rovex]

I don't know if they ever did one but it has the look of a BSL/Phoenix kit

[Enterprisingwestern]

There have been quite a few wagons by Jeremy Dennis for sale on bay of thieves lately, seems to have been a prolific builder, who I personally have never heard of, and used a combination of scratch and cross kitting for some of his models, so this could be from multiple sources. Maybe others may know of him and fill in some of the blanks?

This was a rather interesting one of his;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311874807406?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Mike.

[bertiedog]

The other listing for the Crocodile wagon mentions card and plastic build, not a kit, and I did wonder about the sides and ends being cardboard, but there are no strengtheners inside, so may be aluminium as BSL were.

I think he must have been a builder rather than a kit maker. It will be here soon for examination, and all will be revealed. I do not think it is far short of a decent model, just needs a tidy up.

The real bullion wagons were a nightmare to roster as the doors were only on one side. They were operated on express services, behind the tender, in front of a guards brake coach, with armed officers in attendance. They survived till the 1960's.

 

Stephen..

[lofty1966]

Bogies look like an Anbrico product to me.

Have some similar here.

[hmrspaul]

The real bullion wagons were a nightmare to roster as the doors were only on one side. They were operated on express services, behind the tender, in front of a guards brake coach, with armed officers in attendance. They survived till the 1960's.

 

Stephen..

They did indeed. I managed to photo one, without knowing what it was but realising it was unusual, in January 1967. It doesn't seem to have been noticed by many.

 

I have tried to improve this scan and failed with the kit /software I have at the moment.

 

Paul

[bertiedog]

Soon know some details, a parcel has just arrived and it might be the Bullion wagon. The oddest thing is it being P4, you don't find much on the S/H market. I have a bit of P4 but no GWR only LMS. Might convert it to 00 to use the wagon!

[coachmann]

BSL aluminium kit with cast metal ends, probably off the GWR non-corridor coach kit. Bogies are Anbrico GWR Fishbelly.  Bolsters are brass turning threaded 8BA. Comet models had simiar but they are threaded for something slightly larger than 8BA. The real vehicles ran on 9' American Equalized bogies. Lawrence Scale models and I produced quite a lot of these some 30-40 years ago.

[bertiedog]

Spot on, the parts tally, the only quibble I have is the bogie construction, the "bearings" are shot, and need pin point brass or ball races fitted.

The castings for the bogies are stiff, no movement at all, which will not work in P4 unless the track was perfect. They look like Gibson wheels or dead copies.

Couple of paint issues, very minor, a clean and re-assemble. The buffers are supplied, they are fully sprung. Not bad at £5.40 for the whole thing. The bogies can be sprung quite easily, and weathered a dark rust colour rather than black.

Three link couplings are fitted, but I will change to the Auto Sayer type. There does not appear to be any dings or damage to the aluminium body sides or to the roof section. The cast ends are better painted on the inside than out, which is patchy in finish,

Stephen

[bertiedog]

Into the paint shop later today, there not any detail to add to the body,it has lamp irons etc, the door  hinges and locks, and that' about it. The body is up to Exley standard, it is just the paint is poor on the door side of the Bullion Wagon.

 

The couplings are sprung screw link units, nice quality ones. The buffers appear to be lost wax castings and are sprung types.

 

The main work is up rating the bogies, with a sub frame to allow the wheels to move in compensation style. The castings do not line up with the bearings at present, resulting in axles out of parallel, and the running qualities as built are awful. One of the wheels rubs the frame back all the time. I tried it over my P4 test track, and it derailed even on straight track, let along scale points.

Stephen

[bertiedog]

BSL aluminium kit with cast metal ends, probably off the GWR non-corridor coach kit. Bogies are Anbrico GWR Fishbelly.  Bolsters are brass turning threaded 8BA. Comet models had simiar but they are threaded for something slightly larger than 8BA. The real vehicles ran on 9' American Equalized bogies. Lawrence Scale models and I produced quite a lot of these some 30-40 years ago.

I hope you did not built these bogies, they would be a joke in 00 scale 16.5, but in P4 they are the very worst I have ever seen fitted as they de-rail on straight track, all parts are firmly assembled, which is a pity as it would make the re-build easier all round.

As it stands one wheel on each bogie is off the track as it stands still, no bearings line up to the castings, and i is all out of true to any datum.

I will correct these GWR bogies, but may get a set of Dart castings brass compensation units and cosmetic cast side frames, for the quoted 9 foot American type bogie of correct pattern later on.

[bertiedog]

Fortunately the bogies where assembled with epoxy resin glue, they fell apart with slight pressure. The fitting of the brass pin point bearings, they are there, is about the worse I have ever seen, with one bearing lower in the frame by .7mm against the other end bearing. But one of the side frames has an old break, repaired on original construction with epoxy. It can be properly repaired with low melt solder.

 

It looks like sawn up tube was used for the bearings rather than a proper pin point bearing shape. The holes are nearly as large as the axle!

 

At least a set of castings to work with, but not for this wagon, I'll get the Dart Castings GWR 9 foot American castings and compensation unit of the correct type on order.

 

The wheels are all good condition and re-usable.

[coachmann]

I hope you did not built these bogies, they would be a joke in 00 scale 16.5, but in P4 they are the very worst I have ever seen fitted as they de-rail on straight track, all parts are firmly assembled, which is a pity as it would make the re-build easier all round.

As it stands one wheel on each bogie is off the track as it stands still, no bearings line up to the castings, and i is all out of true to any datum.

I will correct these GWR bogies, but may get a set of Dart castings brass compensation units and cosmetic cast side frames, for the quoted 9 foot American type bogie of correct pattern later on.

You jest of course.

Edited June 20, 2017 by coachmann

[bertiedog]

Please do not take it too seriously, the comments were only about the bogies and they might have been changed over the years, but they are undeniably drilled very out of true, rendering the bogie pretty well u/s, unless bent and adjusted to get all four wheels on the track at once, something of a no no in P4. Perhaps Ambico precast the holes in the wrong place, the holes do not line up with the cast axleboxes, and the wheelbase is .8mm out as well.

 

The Dart Casting 9 foot American pattern bogies have a nice accurate etched brass chassis, with the cast parts only cosmetic, the way a lot of modern ones are done now. A set are on order now......

 

To demonstrate the problem, with the bolster nuts done up, with just enough slack to turn, out of the 8 wheels, only 6 sat on the track! If you slackened off the bolster nut and added a small washer to one end, all wheels were able to touch the track, just......

 

The rest is very well assembled, but appears to have been painted by two people, each side differs in paint line, and the colours are not quite the same. I think someone tried to line out the door side and failed, damaging the paint slightly. I have left the paint on, rubbed down with flour paper and cutting compound, and I will put new top coats on in airbrushed enamel tomorrow.

 

From the inside finish it was painted with yellow chromate primer, which has worked well to hold the paint on the aluminium. One small area of the roof has flaked, but can be restored with airbrushed cellulose black and cut in to match the rest.

 

The cost of the new bogies are far more than the cost of the bullion wagon from Ebay, but worth it as it makes a nice unusual model of excellent quality.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

The real bullion wagons were a nightmare to roster as the doors were only on one side. They were operated on express services, behind the tender, in front of a guards brake coach, with armed officers in attendance. They survived till the 1960's.

 

Stephen..

Not always behind the tender. In the early 1960s the Birmingham run was on the back of the 12.10pm Paddington - Birkenhead. The rear Brake coach of the normal formation was wired through with the alarms in the first compartment. The door to the rest of the train was locked. The van was detached in platform 5 at Snow Hill and shunted into the old Fish Siding under the tunnel at the Platform 11 side of the layout.

You always knew when it was running because around 2pm the Station Pilot complete with Police Constable on twould move from its usual place in the New Yard to be positioned in the Down Sidings in the tunnel at the Moor St end ready to do the shunt.

[coachmann]

It's a vehicle anyone familiar with working with brass sheet could cut and solder together in no time at all. Far better as far as i am concerned than messing around with aluminium and Evostik.  Fishbelly bogies are unprototypical so binning them would be no loss seeing as these bullion vans usually had 9' American. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by coachmann

[bertiedog]

I never really liked the BSL kits or other aluminium sided kits, any soldering was not easy, and could go messy at the slightest problem, so Evo stik or epoxy was the only answer. As the metal is soft and a bit flexible the Evo was best, as epoxy could flake away.

These days the "Gorilla" type glue is the answer, tough, grips and keeps a tiny bit flexible, so good for repairs. Fortunately this van is well put together, quite sound.

From the missing black satin paint on the underside floor it looks like a vac cylinder and battery box were once fitted, so these will be replaced later today.

Stephen

[coachmann]

I used to have scale drawings for a bullion van, long ago thrown out. It was a non-standard vehicle and I doubt the BSL parts are a good starting point. The total height of the sides was less tan standard coaching and non-passenger carrying stock. The roof was a sort of flat top high-arc roof similar to the roof on Siphon G's etc, but of steel with riveted cross strapping. From memory, the Vhangers were in line side by side (RH end of floor on the door side). Some had American 9' equalized type while others had heavy duty 6' 4" Wheels were steel, not wood-centered.  Door handles were a throwback to rings, not 'T' handles.

[Devo63]

I scratch-built one of these in plasticard circa 1980 using the drawing in Russell's GWR coaches vol 2. It was one of the easiest builds for coaching stock I ever made. I originally tried to paint it in the crimson lake scheme as per the photo in the book but could never quite get the gold lining to look right so it was later finished in late 30's style. Unfortunately this was one of the models I had to sell off when I was unemployed back in the early 90's in what I always refer to as "The Great Culling"

 

The roof with your model shows 8 ribs whereas most photos and drawings I've seen have 10 (I think the first pair built had 9 ribs).Each rib has a double row of rivets while the roof side edges and the arch of the roof at the ends have a single row. If I was to build one of these today I would probably use some of the rivet decals that are now available.

 

According to Russell the ring type door handles actually had integral key holes for the locks. The handles of my model were 9ct gold from a broken necklace.

 

Dave R.   

[sandwich station]

Dart Castings sell a complete brass kit of these under the Frogmore Confederacy Range.

[bertiedog]

I have the correct pattern American 9 foot bogies now, from MJT/Dart castings, with the compensated brass etched centres and the cast metal sides, which are basically cosmetic, attached to the outside of the brass chassis. No bearings were supplied so some pinpoint bearings to make in the lathe or change the etching to take a holder for ball races. The ballraces would be the best option, the taper ends of the standard axles run perfectly in a 1mm size bearing. It does need a brass holder turned up, and means widening the spacing of the sides to the max possible, to gain space. The races are 2mm thick, and would normally be recessed in to the castings of the outer parts, but these are too thin on the scale MJT ones to do this easily.

 

I am leaving it set up for P4/S4 standard, and fitting brakes lines up with the scale wheels rather than 00.

 

The body of the bullion wagon has been re sprayed in gloss enamel GWR cream and brown, after it hardens another top coat and then it an be rubbed down with compound to provide a decent surface for the lining and transfers.

 

Rather than use a pen for lining I found I have some lining from yellow Letraset lines that will do the lines better than paint. I have to trial the sheet as it is very old, and may no work properly. Still got to find some GWR lettering (Great Western, with Crest in centre).

 

The ends of the wagon are very plain indeed on the model, just two lamp brackets, and will be done in satin black. The roof will remain in the satin black it has at the moment.

[81E]

 

I've just uploaded pictures of my GWR M17 Bullion Van assembled from my Stafford Road Model Works kit.

 

It comprises 3 parts (excluding bogies and buffers). The roof and chassis are 3D printed in White Strong Flexible plastic while the body is frosted ultra detail. Markits metal buffers and Hornby couplings and wheels were also used.

The bogies were of the GWR American type also available from my Stafford Road Model Works site on Shapeways. https://www.shapeways.com/shops/stafford_road_model_works?section=00+GWR+Diagram+M17+Bullion+Van&s=0

Edited April 15, 2018 by 81E