Peco 75 vs 100

[bluesparky]

Hello all, I hope you can offer me some advice without rolling your collective eyes and thinking "why didn't he simply search for the answers on here".

 As I've stated elsewhere, I'm currently in the process of planning and waiting to build a loft layout which will run quite a distance round with three loops.

 It'll be a little while before I physically build it as I'm in hospital for a while at the moment and can only order stuff (track, buildings & rolling stock) to accompany the stock I've got already.

 

 As I'm limited to how much stuff i can physically look at in my hands (i.e. nothing!) I've a few questions about Peco track.

 Initially I was going to build the whole thing with Peco 100 but after seeing a few discussions on here about electro and insul frog turnouts I change my mind.

 

 I want to build two stations loosely each based on Ipswich and the Bodmin / Wenford heritage railway.

 

 I was thinking of building this with code 75 as advised by the numerous topics on here and also then have the access to, and also the fiddle yard built with code 100 as it'd be quicker, easier and doesn't have to be so easy on the eye. Smoothness of travel isn't essential for the fiddle yard and long running straight sections.

 

 I also would like electro frog turnouts and crossings on the main part of the model for nice and smooth control etc.

 

 The questions I have are about fastening the track down to the baseboard and manipulation of the physical track.

 

 How does code 75 track fasten down? Is it via tacks or another method? Are there pre-drilled holes in the track to assist with tacking down or do I have to drill / hammer through?

 Is it essential to have a cork underlay with Code 75, is the process of ballasting with PVA etc an essential part of fastening the track down?

 

 Or is the recommended method to attach to the baseboard with glue?

 

I don't have any track in front of me in my hospital bed so I can't see and the photos on the internet don't show this.

 

 I'd like to start ordering stuff pretty soon so I'd like an idea of what'll turn up.

 

 I have the same question for code 100 track? Do they have holes or is it another method?

I assume that the track adaptors from code 75 to code 100 work well (even at speed?). The oldest loco / set I have are a couple of 1980's Hornby APTs, would they work well on code 75? They're not too early in the grand scheme of things to have issues with track height on code 75?

 

 My apologies if these newbie questions have been answered elsewhere on here, but I have searched and can't quite find the answers I want.

 Thank you all i advance.

 Mark

 

[LNER4479]

Morning - and I hope you're out of hospital soon and able to get cracking on your layout project.

 

You will - inevitably - get varying opinions on how to work with Peco track. What I can tell you is that it does not come with holes pre-drilled so, if you want to fasten down with track pins then you will need to drill a hole in the sleeper as required. This is the method I use (and have done for over 35 years of using the stuff); a 0.6mm drill bit works well with Peco track pins. The advantage is that the track can be adjusted and even re-used (although see further below); the disadvantage is the visual appearance of the head of the trackpin (not really an issue for fiddle yards and hidden running lines but in station areas? Your choice!)

 

Others will swear by the method of sticking the track down. You can either stick the track down then ballast it subsequently or stick it down and apply the ballast at the same time (eg using a glue like PVA). This method means that you have to know exactly where you want your track to be as you stick it down, ie no adjustment once stuck down. Some say that it is possible to wet the glue (hot water will soften PVA) to remove / adjust but otherwise it is a case of ripping up and starting again which is likely to damage the track so it can't be re-used.

 

Cork? Usually a good idea. Laying track straight onto bare baseboards is not usually recommended. If nothing else, the cork will smooth out slight imperfections in the boards and will help in getting true and level track for good running.

 

All of the above applies equally to Code 75 or Code 100. Mixing the two as you have suggested is perfectly OK. Only stock I've known not cope with Code 75 is 1960's Triang and some Lima stock with the so-called 'Pizza Cutter' wheels (their Mk1's are prone to this).

 

Hope that helps (a bit!). Do ask away - no such thing as a daft question (folks will usually direct you to another thread if the question has already been asked elsewhere).

Edited June 15, 2017 by LNER4479

[ColinK]

I've used both code 75 and code 100. I've used code 100 on my current layout as it seems to be stronger, important in this case as I intend to reuse it on my next layout. I've also used Peco's foam underlay; while people say it disintergrates after 10 years or so, again this is not important as the layout should be dismantled before this happens. I've brush painted the foam underlay and nobody has commented on the fact that I've used foam rather than chippings, indeed, when I tell people its foam underlay they are suprised.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

You don't have to pin through the sleepers. A drawing pin (thumbtack) with the pointy bit in the gap between two sleepers and the head bridging the two sleepers holds down very gently and allows side to side adjustment. It can be left like that in non scenic areas, and is readily altered at any time. If ballasting the pins come out after the 'tack down' of the bare track with dilute PVA ahead of ballasting, nothing visible remains and the pins can be reused.

 

Can this work with foam underlay? Unless going for smaller than advisable radii, foam underlay tacked to the track base with either double sided tape or by Thixofix or similar adhesives, is more than adequate to maintain track alignment with code 75 rail. (I was very pleasantly surprised to find that Peco's code 75 does not dogleg on curves of 24" or greater radius, the rail joiner alone maintains the curve smoothly between lengths, much, much easier than code 100.)

[Pete the Elaner]

Try some things on short pieces of test track. 6" is enough to tell what you like & don't. You can compare different rust painting, ballast, 75 v 100, weathering, sleeper spacing, 6' spacing, different brands of track, just about everything. It does not take very long & you get to brush up your technique for doing what you need without making a mess of anything important.

 

I don't understand the general opinion that PVA is good for either fixing track or ballasting. I disagree completely.

It sets too slowly for fixing track & as a resin, it holds ballast far too rigidly.

I have found Copydex much better for both & I am also experimenting with wallpaper paste flakes for ballasting. The advantage of this is that you mix it into the dry ballast then spray water mist over the top which does not disturb ballast like dropping glue/water mix can sometimes do.

[The Johnster]

The above replies having already given you some ideas about how to go about laying your track, I will not add to them except to voice my view that foam underlay is the Devil's expectorant.  Anyone who says they cannot distinguish it from proper ballast is being polite.

 

The main difference is in the appearance, and in this respect the Code 75 is much better if you are modelling a traditional steam age railway with chaired track.  I started again after a long gap last autumn, and made the decision to go with Code 100 for such a layout, based on it's easy availability at the time, particularly in regard to pointwork, in my local shops, and have regretted it ever since form the point of view of appearance; I have no issues with it's reliability or ease of laying.  Coed 75 is lighter in construction; the rails are (obviously) smaller in cross section and the plastic web sleeper base is much thinner.  This means that it will be less robust when you are drilling hole and hammering fixing pins in, but if you are careful this should not be a deal breaker.  Much depends on what the future for the layout is intended to be and if you will be wanting to remove and re-use it; my layout is probably going to be my last and should last me the rest of my life, perhaps 25 or 30 years if I'm lucky.  As I live in rented property, I have had to factor in that I may have to move, though I have no current intention of doing or need to do such a thing, and the layout is designed to come apart if it has to; this came in very handy a few months ago when a hole appeared in the layout/bedroom floor and the landlord took the opportunity to clear the property to relay new carpet as well.  Some damage was done to the layout, perhaps inevitably when you are dealing with people not used to handling baseboards with detailed models on the tops of them, and I would have expected matters to have been worse with code 75 track, though again not to a deal-breaking extent.

Edited June 15, 2017 by The Johnster

[ColinK]

In case it helps, here is a photo of my layout, Peco code 100 track on Peco foam underlay. Taken much closer than its normally viewed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

In case it helps, here is a photo of my layout, Peco code 100 track on Peco foam underlay. Taken much closer than its normally viewed.

I must admit that looks much better than I would expect foam to look.

 

My initial reaction is that the sleepers look too close together (because I space mine out). Foam will be set at 'standard' sleeper spacing.

I find it a bit odd that the sleeper spacing is just as obvious to me as code 100. Probably because it is weathered nicely.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Pete the Elaner

[DCB]

The underlay gives a realistic ballast shoulder which is a feature of the vast majority of full size lines, unlike the scruffy mess where ballast blends with the lineside which many modelers end up with.   This is fine for a disused quarry line or circa 1880 but nothing like a modern main line or post grouping steam era main or branch line.

[BR60103]

When the Code 75 came out, our importer said that Peco had finally got it right. He thought the engineering had fixed up some problems with the code 100. (I'm not sure what they were.) My Tri-Ang locos and a couple of Lima ones don't like the code 75 or even the newest code 100.

 

I've used all the methods for holding down track.

I don't like having large nail heads in the middle of the sleepers, but it works.

If you have a soft but stiff underlay (cork or Homasote) I like to use spikes outside the rails but between the sleepers, one each side. Close enough together to keep the rails in line. 

Most of my current track is held down with one of the Woodland Scenics glues -- either Scenic Cement or Foam Tack. I'm using the WS foam roadbed which is also glued down. The SC softens easily in water. What I do is hold the track in place with large pins and then use an eyedropper to flood the area between the sleepers and along the outside. Sometimes I mist with alcohol to make the glue run in better.

Foam roadbed is not suitable for nails-through-sleepers because it gives and the sleepers distort.

A light tacking is adequate if you follow with ballasting.

[bluesparky]

Hi all, thank you for your replies, I appreciate the time you've taken to talk to a newbie!

 

I think the cork underlay is an option I'll go for, but I'm still confused / unsure / undecided about the actual method of fastening the track even after the great advice from above. The only two model railways / train sets I built before were using Hornby track and tapping tacks through the pre-drilled holes.

 

I'll be honest, and admit it's not the asthetic effect behind the reason for using code 75, but becuase I'd heard the flexi track is easier to bend and flex into a required curve than the code 100, and also the ability of having electro turnouts and slips etc.

 Please forgive my ignorance / not paying attention, what is a suitable way way to ballast and fix track (ignoring what actually to use at the moment)? Lay the track out, use the glue and ballast when it's laying loose on the board, and the glue and ballast will keep the track in place with tacks that are added afterwards or am I grabbing the wrong end of the stick?

 

 What is the best way to attach the cork to the baseboard (i'm unsure whether to use sundela or ply, it'll be a loft layout so the lightweight option will probably be most suitable), should that be done and sorted before even thinking about laying track?

 

 Would having a cork underlay cause any issues with coach / platform height?

 

 Something that does stick in my mind, using different glues etc which get sprayed onto the track, what kind of cleaning routine would be needed to get this off the track again? I asssume that once it dries on the track then there will be electrical continuity issues as it'll have a thin flim of glue on it?

 

Also, what's the difference between Nickel Silver & Steel track, is there a better option for a loft layout?

Thank you for your time and your answers for now, I'm sure there will be more questions along later!

[bluesparky]

In case it helps, here is a photo of my layout, Peco code 100 track on Peco foam underlay. Taken much closer than its normally viewed.

 

IMG_1189.jpg

Hi Colin, slightly off topic, but what did you use for your station platforms in this photo?

Thank you

[Pete the Elaner]

Code 100 is available in Electrofog & is easy to bend.
If you are not bothered about the look of finer scale track, then you may want to consider that code 100 is a little cheaper.

Sundaela is nice for cutting & drilling but, along with MDF, it has a tendency to warp in a slightly damp environment. Ply keeps its shape much better.

You could nail the cork to the board, or glue it. PVA is suitable for this.
If you are using RTR platforms then you will need to raise them by the height of the cork, so why not mount them on it?
If you are building your own platforms then you will need to measure them anyway.

A track rubber will get rid of dried on glue, but it is easier if you can wipe it off with a rag before it dries.
You will need some form of track cleaner anyway & a track rubber is the cheapest & easiest solution.

Nickel Silver is much more common within the Peco range. It needs a lot less cleaning than most other metals, including steel. Many modellers prefer it for this reason.
Steel rusts when damp & it will get damp when you ballast the layout.
Steel was good for locos which used magnets for adhesion but the major manufacturers moved away from this in the 70s.

[bluesparky]

Code 100 is available in Electrofog & is easy to bend.

If you are not bothered about the look of finer scale track, then you may want to consider that code 100 is a little cheaper.

 

Sundaela is nice for cutting & drilling but, along with MDF, it has a tendency to warp in a slightly damp environment. Ply keeps its shape much better.

 

You could nail the cork to the board, or glue it. PVA is suitable for this.

If you are using RTR platforms then you will need to raise them by the height of the cork, so why not mount them on it?

If you are building your own platforms then you will need to measure them anyway.

 

A track rubber will get rid of dried on glue, but it is easier if you can wipe it off with a rag before it dries.

You will need some form of track cleaner anyway & a track rubber is the cheapest & easiest solution.

 

Nickel Silver is much more common within the Peco range. It needs a lot less cleaning than most other metals, including steel. Many modellers prefer it for this reason.

Steel rusts when damp & it will get damp when you ballast the layout.

Steel was good for locos which used magnets for adhesion but the major manufacturers moved away from this in the 70s.

Great, super bunch of answers in one post, thank you Pete

[ejstubbs]

Code 100 is available in Electrofog

 

Only turnouts, not crossings. (I'm talking Peco here - I don't know about other manufacturers.  The OP seemed to assume Peco, although didn't state it, and most of the responses seem to as well.)

 

FWIW, my Bachmann 1F 0-6-0T runs through my SL-80 code 100 insulfrog single slip with no problem at all.

[BR60103]

An old friend (no longer with us) pinned his track down by pushing a Peco pin through the chair at a diagonal. The head disappeared in the plastic.

I glue the track (see post above) and leave for up to 10 years to make sure everything works correctly. When I add ballast, I put it down then mist with alcohol to break surface tension. Some people use "wet" water -- water with a drop of dishwashing soap in it. Then I gently add glue (WS scenic cement or dilute acrylic matt medium) between the sleepers and along the outside using an eyedropper.  I don't spray glue over the tracks. 

 

I tried a sample of ballast with glue mixed in. This seems to have risen up and coated the rails in awkward places.

 

Using a softish glue also helps with sound transmission. Regular glues become hard and brittle and transmit sound from track to baseboard if they go all the way down.

[DCB]

There are multiple schools of thought re code 75 vs code 100 and of how to hold tracks down.

 

I think it is very much horses for courses.  Code 75 looks good, cuts easier than code 100, solders easier, ought to be cheaper (!) with less material but should not be as good for carrying DCC power with smaller cross section and smaller fishplates, but DCC usually uses multiple droppers and Bus bars and the code 75 is easier to solder to, I have only seen N/S code 75.  I feed power for well over 20 feet with out droppers or additional feeds  in code 100 steel in my loft on DC with no discernible voltage or speed drop.  75 should curve better and have less tendency to straighten out on curves but a greater tendency to kink at fishplates.

 

Code 100 is more robust, 40 year old code 100 points are still working well while 75 has not been around so long, code 100 can take a wider variety of wheels than 75.

 

I guess the cross over between the two comes at 2ft radius.  My experience is curves less than 2ft radius in flexi track are a PITA and it keps trying to straighten out.  Using set track curves for sub 2ft curves makes life so much easier, even if you have to cut the sleeper webs and adjust the radius and cut to length like flexi. I don t know of any code 75 set track.  so  I would suggest code 100 for small layouts with sub 2ft radius curves.  I would not use set track points as they are so toy like and give ridiculously wide track spacing, great for 13"  radius...

 

Securing track again is preference, set track is fine with double sided tape, flexi needs more positive restraint, especially on sharp curves, I drill sleepers with a small drill bit in a pin chuck or archimedian drill , code 100 steel flexi, sharp curve, hot day and the track rips out of the rail chairs.

 

Ballasting changed with the years, look at photos of the full size not models. There should be a walking route of cess beside the tracks and a cess between pairs of tracks.   No four evenly paralell tracks like I made the mistake of laying 30 years ago.    Underlay gives a good crisp ballast shoulder effect and for 1920s to 2000s is better than most modelers attempts.  The ballast shoulders stayed crisp right to the end on branch lines and then deeper ballast came in post branch line era (- 1965) so the scruffy mess ballast many layouts sport is only prototypical for 2000s disused main lines used occasionally for private siding traffic (Okehampton)  

 

For ultimate speed on a continuous run micro layout Triang track takes some beating, huge rails and huge flanges, scale 125 mph round 15" radius curves,  Great fun!

Edited June 17, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[Pete the Elaner]

There should be a walking route of cess beside the tracks and a cess between pairs of tracks.

No four evenly parallel tracks like I made the mistake of laying 30 years ago.

I have seen that before but based on my observations on the modern railway, it is either from a rule book or hear say.

 

It is more common to have a pile of ballast in the 6'. I have never seen a cess.

 

A large chunk of the southern WCML's 4 track section is evenly spaced. The fast & slow lines only separate further for stations & tunnels.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Pete the Elaner

[28XX]

An alternative to cork underlay is self adhesive FabFoam (other trade names are available) from Hobbycraft. It is 2mm thick and comes in a wide range of colours. I use black, so that the odd bit of missing ballast is not noticeable.

 

A cheaper alternative for ballasting is vivarium calcium carbonate sand sold in pet shops. The natural colour is close to newly ballasted track in the post-steam era. It takes diluted acrylic paint well.

[ColinK]

Hi Colin, slightly off topic, but what did you use for your station platforms in this photo?

Thank you

They are just Metcalffe kits as are most of the buildings. The layout was built as a 'quickie' prior to a house move, hence the Metcalffe kits and foam ballast, so I can dismantle it and reuse all the track and electrical bits eg frog juicers. The blue building you can just see is the power signal box, made from a Peco platform canopy.

[DCB]

I have seen that before but based on my observations on the modern railway, it is either from a rule book or hear say.

 

It is more common to have a pile of ballast in the 6'. I have never seen a cess.

 

A large chunk of the southern WCML's 4 track section is evenly spaced. The fast & slow lines only separate further for stations & tunnels.

There is a thread on track spacing on here with lot info.  Ballast, old rails, kebab boxes between tracks help give that 2000s era look.  Much of the WCML was widened as cheaply as possible and lacks the "Ten foot" between pairs of tracks but you need to get down to 42 or 44mm track spacing to make that work. Mine is 50mm std streamline  and looks horrible.

[newbryford]

 

 What I can tell you is that it does not come with holes pre-drilled so, if you want to fasten down with track pins then you will need to drill a hole in the sleeper as required.

 

Code 75 pointwork has holes that are part through and easily drilled out from underneath before laying. A quick look at a large radius has two near each end and one in the middle.

 

I think Code 100 pointwork also has them.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[ejstubbs]

Just looked at my code 100 electrofrog turnouts:

• The medium points have two partially-drilled holes at the heel end, nothing else
• The short points have two partially-drilled holes at the heel end and one in the middle
• The short Y points have two fully drilled holes at the heel end and one in the middle

These were all bought within the last year or so.

 

I haven't checked my code 100 insulfrog single slip.

Edited June 17, 2017 by ejstubbs

[bluesparky]

They are just Metcalffe kits as are most of the buildings. The layout was built as a 'quickie' prior to a house move, hence the Metcalffe kits and foam ballast, so I can dismantle it and reuse all the track and electrical bits eg frog juicers. The blue building you can just see is the power signal box, made from a Peco platform canopy.

Ok, thank you

Code 75 pointwork has holes that are part through and easily drilled out from underneath before laying. A quick look at a large radius has two near each end and one in the middle.

 

I think Code 100 pointwork also has them.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Lovely, cheers,

 Mark

[rob D2]

Re sticking down,,

I've got code 100. I drill a hole in centre of a few sleepers and put a track pin in, when I have ballasted it, I rely on that to keep it glued down, remove the pins, fill the holes and paint with sleeper grime colour