Railway company owned mineral wagons in coal traffic

[ColHut]

G'day,

 

Looking at the numbers of rolling stock in use in 1932 as given by Essery, I note over 150,000 mineral wagons owned by the railways, most of which were not in use as service stock for Loco coal. Can anyone advise whether non-hopper railway owned minerals in traffic use were common user stock? Some pictures suggest they were, but I do not have any hard evidence either way.

 

regards

[Rail-Online]

Yes, Minerals were common user so could be seen inter-mixed on any railway in the 1930s. Concentrate on LMS and LNER types as the GWR had very few (used PO's and the non-pool 20T types) and SR ones were quite scarce in absolute number terms. Watch out for diagonal stripes (indicating the end door) on LNER & LMS ones, they were not there when forst built and therefore when official photos were taken, but introduced from @1930 and older builds would have them painted on. They are a pig to paint too!

 

Tony

[Poggy1165]

There is a rather lovely model of Churston which appears in the MRJ from time to time. It features a coal train made up of LMS and LNER coal wagons operating between Kingswear and Torquay Gas Works, the reason being that the GW did not have sufficient (or any) mineral wagons and thus used common users. These wagons were (obviously) miles from their parent systems and may indeed rarely have seen it if they were kept in a "circuit".

[wagonman]

There is a rather lovely model of Churston which appears in the MRJ from time to time. It features a coal train made up of LMS and LNER coal wagons operating between Kingswear and Torquay Gas Works, the reason being that the GW did not have sufficient (or any) mineral wagons and thus used common users. These wagons were (obviously) miles from their parent systems and may indeed rarely have seen it if they were kept in a "circuit".

 

 

The contract for that traffic flow was held by Renwick Wilton & Co for many years prior to the GWR taking over.

[ColHut]

Thanks All, Your inputs much appreciated. Consistent with some pictures of LMS minerals being used for what looks like ash removal in an LNER MPD.

[Fat Controller]

'Great Western Docks and Marine' has a photo of Kingswear. Of the 25 or so minerals present, there are 7 LMS (including at least one lettered L&NWR), 6 LNER, 3 SR and a single GWR. The rest cannot be clearly identified. The photo was taken in June 1932.

[kevinlms]

There is a rather lovely model of Churston which appears in the MRJ from time to time. It features a coal train made up of LMS and LNER coal wagons operating between Kingswear and Torquay Gas Works, the reason being that the GW did not have sufficient (or any) mineral wagons and thus used common users. These wagons were (obviously) miles from their parent systems and may indeed rarely have seen it if they were kept in a "circuit".

Yes, the GWR could have used LMS & LNER coal wagons, but they could not just take Common User wagons, if insufficient of their own on hand. They would have to pay for them, if kept beyond a certain period (measured in days, I believe).

 

If the LMS had 100 & the LNER also had 100, while the GWR only had 20, then any 20 of the combined pool of 220 could be on the GWR for 'free'. So if going to a GWR destination, from a LMS or LNER source, then the GWR would have to return those taking their day to day holding above 20 ASAP, if they didn't want to pay for their usage. At least that is my understanding of the Common User system.

 

Quantities made up to make the point straightforward.

[MarcD]

The process started 1917 with war time economy measures. The movement of wagons was wide spread and difficult to actually know where wagons were, with some wagon vanishing completely. The RCH survey for 1920 in the GWR's main goods yard in Bristol showed more none GWR wagons that GWR ones. 

 

On the mineral wagon front, the Southern did have some specific mineral wagons inherited from both the SECR, LBSCR and the S&DJR (Via LSWR). These wagon did live long enough to be running in the late 1930's so would fit in to your layout.

 

From the LMS apart from the ones built after 1923 they inherited a large number of mineral wagons from both the Midland, LNWR, LYR, G&SWR and the Cally. These would have still out numbered the ones built by the LMS.

 

LNER minerals wagons would have mainly been from the Great Northern, Great Central and the North British as well as post 1923 build. The largest number of LNER minerals were hoppered to basically a NER designs. 

 

Marc

[Poggy1165]

I believe there were number takers at the relevant junctions and (no doubt through the agency of the RCH) appropriate accounting was done. Given that the GWR was (generally) less industrialised than the LMS and LNER there tended to be a net outflow of LNER and LMS wagons onto the GW. Apparently this was met by the GW sending the appropriate number of empties to the junctions. The GW was generally quite keen to rid itself of non-GW stock when possible as it tended to be less well maintained. It would also be less likely to have oil boxes, for example. But anyway, balance was maintained as part of the normal running of the railways and no one got a "free ride".

 

I think it's fair to say that, pre-group, some companies were less keen than others on keeping their goods wagons in good nick. This will have inhibited any thoughts of common use, and the initial GC/GE/GN pooling of 1915 (3 plank opens and above) was probably brought about because these three already had a close working relationship and essentially trusted one another.