XPO Wagons - more info on four pictures needed.

[nicktamarensis]

Hello,

 

I wonder if anyone can help out with any further info on the following pictues of XPO wagons taken by Ted West in the 1950's.

 

1. 12ton open wagon, tare 6-13, No. 28, white lettering, black shading, pink background. 'D. Ferguson & Son Ltd, Barrhead', 

 

2. 21ton, open steel wagon, tare 11-0-0, No. P236235, Rusty red. 

 

3. 3ton open wagon, tare 6-18, No. 241, red body, black lettering, white shading.  'Burr & Gibbons Southall'.

 

4. 13ton open wagon, No. 133, red body, black lettering, white shading.'New Cransley'. 

[AberdeenBill]

Nice photos.   R1774 (21t coke conversion) is very unusual.   It's interesting that the others don't have a Pxxxx number.

 

Bill

[Fat Controller]

Nice photos.   R1774 (21t coke conversion) is very unusual.   It's interesting that the others don't have a Pxxxx number.

 

Bill

The others may well have been deemed unfit for further service; the first wagon appears to have only single-shoe brake gear. I wonder if that coke wagon was a purpose-built wagon? The overhang of the ends seems more akin to that of the coke hoppers built by the LMS and BR than that of 'normal' 21t minerals.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Fat Controller

[The Johnster]

Or is it possible that the photos were taken on private sidings, e.g a colliery or docks system, and the wooden bodied wagons were part of an internal user fleet?

[nicktamarensis]

All the pics were taken at Kettering on 16 September 1952.

[jim.snowdon]

Nice photos.   R1774 (21t coke conversion) is very unusual.   It's interesting that the others don't have a Pxxxx number.

 

Bill

Or rather, don't yet have a P number.

 

I appreciate it is nearly 4 years into BR, but the renumbering of ex-PO wagons did not exactly happen overnight. My understanding is that there was not a concerted effort to renumber the fleet, but simply that they were renumbered as and when they turned up at wagon repairers for any reason, taking the next available Pxxx number from the block allocated to that repairer. If that visit was not occasioned by a need for actual repair on account of defects, it would ultimately be on the basis of time since the last general repair as indicated by a small plate somwehere on the underframe.

 

Jim

[nicktamarensis]

Thanks for your comments gentlemen.

Has anyone got any dope on the subsequent history of these four wagons (and also their likely period of origin)?

Kettering was a centre of the local ironstone industry plus there was the Kettering ironstone industry to the north of the town with a complex of furnaces. Also at the time (as far as I can tell from 'Old Maps'), there was a wagon workshop near the station all of which explain the presence of these types of wagons at the time when the photographs were taken.

Nick. 

[nicktamarensis]

Plus the Cransley Ironworks with its own railway system lay a short distance to the south-west of the town.

[The Johnster]

I think Jim has probably got the right answer; the wagons are simply not renumbered yet, and may never be.  Many XPO were condemned when it came to their turn in workshops as the huge building programme of new steel 16tonners got into it's stride.

[cctransuk]

I think Jim has probably got the right answer; the wagons are simply not renumbered yet, and may never be.  Many XPO were condemned when it came to their turn in workshops as the huge building programme of new steel 16tonners got into it's stride.

 

Semi-derelict unrenumbered wagons in a siding at Kettering - I'll put money on them being destined for George Cohen's breaking yard nearby; wooden stock was simply set on fire, and the ferrous remains were picked up later for scrap.

 

I have a PO wagon registration plate picked up from the general detritus there back in the late 1960s.

 

This yard was the final resting place for many steam, early diesel locos and Underground stock at around that time.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited July 1, 2017 by cctransuk

[Mark Saunders]

The application of P numbers did not happen overnight!

 

R1774 the RCH 20t steel mineral with Coke Raves may be one of the ones purpose built for Stewarts & Lloyds Bilston, as per the livery produced rtr by Airfix/Mainline!

 

Mark Saunders

[Fat Controller]

The application of P numbers did not happen overnight!

 

R1774 the RCH 20t steel mineral with Coke Raves may be one of the ones purpose built for Stewarts & Lloyds Bilston, as per the livery produced rtr by Airfix/Mainline!

 

Mark Saunders

Thanks, Mark; any idea about how many of these there were?

[hmrspaul]

Semi-derelict unrenumbered wagons in a siding at Kettering - I'll put money on them being destined for George Cohen's breaking yard nearby; wooden stock was simply set on fire, and the ferrous remains were picked up later for scrap.

 

I have a PO wagon registration plate picked up from the general detritus there back in the late 1960s.

 

This yard was the final resting place for many steam, early diesel locos and Underground stock at around that time.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

John

 

Although I agree about the first one, the other three are all quite modern wagons and should have lasted for a few more years.

 

Dave Larkin has, of course, published on the P renumbering as Jim Snowdon notes, it took years and blocks of numbers were provided to each of many wagon works. As they used up their allocation they were given another batch to use. I certainly agree the big steel wagon is unusually long so almost certainly a coke from new. It would carry much too much coal. The New Cransley is nice in being built as a coke, with the corner plates are carried upto the top of the raves unlike the New Cransley on my site. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/privateownerwagon/e3019cfb7

 

Paul Bartlett

Edited July 1, 2017 by hmrspaul

[Mark Saunders]

The application of P numbers did not happen overnight!

 

R1774 the RCH 20t steel mineral with Coke Raves may be one of the ones purpose built for Stewarts & Lloyds Bilston, as per the livery produced rtr by Airfix/Mainline!

 

Mark Saunders

 

 

Thanks, Mark; any idea about how many of these there were?

 

Brian

 

I have an HMRS print of the official of 3506 and Turton Vol vii has 3601.

 

The caption states 150 numbered 3501 - 3650 built by Met Camm, circa 1927.

 

Mark

[br2975]

And there was me getting all excited thinking I'd be reading a thread on the elusive 80 ton Warwell wagons, TOPS code XPO.

[RANGERS]

Thanks for your comments gentlemen.

Has anyone got any dope on the subsequent history of these four wagons (and also their likely period of origin)?

Kettering was a centre of the local ironstone industry plus there was the Kettering ironstone industry to the north of the town with a complex of furnaces. Also at the time (as far as I can tell from 'Old Maps'), there was a wagon workshop near the station all of which explain the presence of these types of wagons at the time when the photographs were taken.

Nick.

 

Kettering was also home to Cohen's scrapyard of course, which might explain the presence of these.

[cctransuk]

Kettering was also home to Cohen's scrapyard of course, which might explain the presence of these.

 

See post #10.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[jim.snowdon]

Semi-derelict unrenumbered wagons in a siding at Kettering - I'll put money on them being destined for George Cohen's breaking yard nearby; wooden stock was simply set on fire, and the ferrous remains were picked up later for scrap.

 

They don't look particularly derelict, just typical of thoroughly work-worn wagons of the time. None are marked as condemned and a lot more passed through Kettering than just stock destined for Cohen's yard.

 

Apart from possibly the 21T wagon, because of its P number, I suspect that the fate of the other wagons will be impossible to determine simply because the only other identifying feature, the registration number, is unreadable.

 

Jim

[Fat Controller]

Would that wagon (R1773)  with a single brake shoe conform to then-current standards?

[Mark Saunders]

Would that wagon (R1773)  with a single brake shoe conform to then-current standards?

 

It has a handbrake lever on both sides so probably does; the grease axle boxes would probably be the main reason to withdraw it!

 

Mark Saunders

[jim.snowdon]

It has a handbrake lever on both sides so probably does; the grease axle boxes would probably be the main reason to withdraw it!

 

Mark Saunders

Correct as regards the brakes - the requirement was simply that every wagon had to be fitted with a hand brake that could be applied from either side and released only from the same side as it had been applied. (It was the latter requirement that effectively killed off the GWR's "either side" brake, as it could be released from either side, irrespective of the side from which it had been applied.)

 

As regards the axleboxes, the degree of standardisation that was deliberately built into the RCH specifications meant that these could be replaced by more modern oil lubricated types. In 1952, whether or not they would be a distinctly moot point and probably decided by how much the wagon was needed and the availability of replacement axleboxes. Oil axleboxes were in use on pre-1923 RCH wagons and spares, not necessarily a matched set, would have been available from other scrapped wagons.

 

Jim

[Mark Saunders]

P236235 is definitely a Stewarts & Lloyds 20 ton coke, 25' oh and 12' wb built 1927 by Midland Rly Carriage and Wagon company, original number not known! 

 

From David Larkin's notes

 

Mark Saunders

[nicktamarensis]

Many thanks gents for all the extra info.  This is much appreciated.

Any additional info about the Burr & Gibbons and D. Ferguson wagons other than these two companies being coal merchants in Southall and Barrhead?

Nick.

[RANGERS]

Cohen's weren't the destination for any of these, at least not for a while after the pics were taken. Cransley Furnaces were operational up until at least 1958 and occupied part of the site until 1962. Cohen's arrived around 1960 when dismantling was underway and ultimately took over the site when the works were completely cleared.

 

S&L had a share in the Cransley empire and worked it in the last few years before closure, that may explain the presence of the coke wagons, as Cransley had no coke ovens, all feed stock was imported. No record of where it came from but Corby being the nearest would seem logical, however until the Deene Coke Ovens were completed there in the 60s, Corby struggled to keep up with internal demand so there was little spare available there. The West Mids plants or outside suppliers seem more likely.

[nicktamarensis]

Many thanks for the very interesting contributions gentlemen. 

Much of the pertinent info kindly offered on this subject (and others in past and those in the future no doubt!) will go towards complementing the ongoing series of 'Workaday Wagons' which appears fairly regularly within the Irwell Press monthly titles British Railway Illustrated and Railway Bylines.  I have been working on this project for some time and have sometimes needed to rely on information generously supplied by members of this forum and also that of the HMRS stewards. I will continue to credit these sources for contributions and, where appropriate, individuals by name as long as this is acceptable.

Best wishes to all.

Nick.