LNWR Coal Engine Build.. A few questions..

[DaleT]

Hi guys,

 

A few years ago I got the O gauge bug and built a brass wagon and a small 0-4-0 loco.  I didn't do anything with them after that and (now regrettably) I sold them on.  Recently while thinking about railway modelling again I decided I wanted to be a full time O gauge person and focus on a LNW line that used to run near my house, hence I bought this kit..

 

Now, with my limited experience I knew this kit would test me a bit but there's no rush and I'm enjoying it.  The tender was tricky in places and I wouldn't want to post close up pictures but it runs well and I'm happy with it.  The two main questions I have right now are these;

 

1. I have watched/read about chassis construction and I used an alignment jig, mirror glass and hopefully a bit of common sense while soldering the first two spacers in the chassis.. I noticed, despite my best effort, it seemed like there was a tiny half millimetre rock when I put the chassis on a piece of mirror glass (axle hole down, that is)..  I decided that before I proceeded with anymore soldering I would test the chassis with the wheels.  After a little easing of the bearings the chassis rolls smooth and freely across the track you can see (some pieces are flatter than others!)  to my eye it looks good, but I guess I'm paranoid at this stage.. 

 

SO my question is does that sound OK to continue at this point or should I go back and make sure there is absolutely NO rocking on the mirror glass? (even if it was just half a mil and possibly all in my mind).. 

 

2. After building the tender I'm determined to not let these Slater's wheels rust as it was a right pain keeping it off!  So I've got some of the gun metal blackening stuff which seems bloody lethal if you ask me..  any way does the blackening fluid actually prevent rusting or does it just blacken the wheels? or both?

 

Any comments greatly appreciated

 

Dale 

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by DaleT

[Poggy1165]

The blackening solution (which is lethal, at least potentially) both blackens and (in theory) prevents rust. However, you can get some rather odd outcomes, and you might be better practising with a few wagon wheels first. Builders on here often suggest diluting the liquid, but I'm not sure in what proportion.

 

I think this is a case where following the maker's instructions slavishly is a good idea. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Poggy1165

[DaleT]

The blackening solution (which is lethal, at least potentially) both blackens and (in theory) prevents rust. However, you can get some rather odd outcomes, and you might be better practising with a few wagon wheels first. Builders on here often suggest diluting the liquid, but I'm not sure in what proportion.

 

I think this is a case where following the maker's instructions slavishly is a good idea. 

Thank you.. yes I am really taking my time with it and making sure I understand the instructions etc but unfortunately the instructions don't specify or stress points about chassis alignment, I think it assumes you know what your doing!   

[railwayrod]

Hello Dale.

 

My steam locos are sprung which means that the wheels are always in contact with the rails at all times. If you can manage to adapt the chassis side frames for springing them I am sure you will end up with a good runner provided you do every else that a goof chassis requires. If you do not fancy springing them perhaps you can consider compensation which works well on my S7 Jinty (not to be confused with the Jinty running on Ramchester which is fine scale). I am not a loco builder and can only comment on the locos I have running on my layout but I am sure there is plenty of hepful advice on RMweb.

 

Rod

[DaleT]

Hello Dale.

 

My steam locos are sprung which means that the wheels are always in contact with the rails at all times. If you can manage to adapt the chassis side frames for springing them I am sure you will end up with a good runner provided you do every else that a goof chassis requires. If you do not fancy springing them perhaps you can consider compensation which works well on my S7 Jinty (not to be confused with the Jinty running on Ramchester which is fine scale). I am not a loco builder and can only comment on the locos I have running on my layout but I am sure there is plenty of hepful advice on RMweb.

 

Rod

Thanks Rod,  I'm not sure I dare attempt to modify the chassis.. the middle axle is slightly raised which I think may mean it has a little compensation built in.  I say that as the tender chassis is compensated and the middle wheels on that are also slightly raised (but also move sideways bit).. well after staring at it for a few hours and rolling it along track, I think it will be fine.. 

 

Does anyone now if this loco would be run ok on peco set track curves?

 

Dale

[Simond]

Dale,

 

There's lots about compensation here - http://www.abcgear.talktalk.net/abc_gears_-_loco_suspension.pdf - Google will find more info.

 

You can certainly build a rigid chassis and it'll work - however, I think it's worth the extra effort to compensate. I'm not convinced springing really adds enough extra benefit to justify the extra effort involved.

 

Blacking solutions vary, I would follow the advice re the directions, following blacking, wash the wheels with plenty of water, dry them immediately, and assuming they are a colour you like, oil them with light oil, or wd40. Don't oil them if they need re-blacking. If the blacking is patchy or pale, then give the wheels another clean, degrease (very important) and have another go - maybe diluting a little with some de-ionised water.

 

Keep posting!

 

Best

Simon

[Michael Edge]

Hi guys,

 

A few years ago I got the O gauge bug and built a brass wagon and a small 0-4-0 loco.  I didn't do anything with them after that and (now regrettably) I sold them on.  Recently while thinking about railway modelling again I decided I wanted to be a full time O gauge person and focus on a LNW line that used to run near my house, hence I bought this kit..

 

Now, with my limited experience I knew this kit would test me a bit but there's no rush and I'm enjoying it.  The tender was tricky in places and I wouldn't want to post close up pictures but it runs well and I'm happy with it.  The two main questions I have right now are these;

 

1. I have watched/read about chassis construction and I used an alignment jig, mirror glass and hopefully a bit of common sense while soldering the first two spacers in the chassis.. I noticed, despite my best effort, it seemed like there was a tiny half millimetre rock when I put the chassis on a piece of mirror glass (axle hole down, that is)..  I decided that before I proceeded with anymore soldering I would test the chassis with the wheels.  After a little easing of the bearings the chassis rolls smooth and freely across the track you can see (some pieces are flatter than others!)  to my eye it looks good, but I guess I'm paranoid at this stage.. 

 

SO my question is does that sound OK to continue at this point or should I go back and make sure there is absolutely NO rocking on the mirror glass? (even if it was just half a mil and possibly all in my mind).. 

 

2. After building the tender I'm determined to not let these Slater's wheels rust as it was a right pain keeping it off!  So I've got some of the gun metal blackening stuff which seems bloody lethal if you ask me..  any way does the blackening fluid actually prevent rusting or does it just blacken the wheels? or both?

 

Any comments greatly appreciated

 

Dale 

 

20170712_143841.jpg

 

There's no real stiffness in the frames, they will flex under load (full size plate frames do as well). Almost all the torsional stiffness of your loco will be in the boiler, if you don't build the body straight and square it will pull the frames out when they are bolted in to it.

[DaleT]

Thank you both Simond and Michael Edge.

 

I will read that compensation article with fresh eyes tomorrow.  Yes Michael Edge that makes sense, I'd not even given the loco body any thought as yet.

 

thanks for your help, yes I'll post up progress.

 

Dale 

[Sheffield]

I have used some French blackening solution I purchased at great cost from a French gun shop. It produced an excellent finish as regards appearance, but it an insulating finish. Not much use for driving wheels, and I am having to carefully remove it from the working surfaces. Might be worth a trial run with your choosen product.

[Simond]

Never had such an issue, then again, my blacking solution is probably American...

[Focalplane]

Dale

 

My first few loco builds were from kits by Jim McGeown (Connoisseur) and he has lots of good advice of assembling chassis and frames on his web site.  I have also built David Andrews' kits and he recommends opening up the centre axle to allow some vertical play.  But these days I do tend to either compensate or spring locomotive axles as an aid to better electrical pick up.

 

I also bought a Poppy's 7mm scale jig which is simple, reasonably inexpensive and works.

 

I have a glass kitchen work surface protector which cost me 10 euros at the local supermarket - excellent value.

 

The 7mm crowd are very generous with their time and advice to newcomers, do not hesitate to join in!

 

Paul

[jim.snowdon]

Apologies if you have found this already, but I documented my building of a Coal Engine from the one-time Modeller's World kit, which I believe is the origin of the current Mercian Models kit. It is on RMWeb at -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93822-jims-7mm-workbench-lnw-17-coal-engine-build/page-4

 

commencing at post #77.

 

Jim

[DaleT]

Thanks Sheffield, Focalplane and Jim Snowdon,

 

Yes I have previously bought from Connoisseur and I wish the coal engine instructions where like Jim's!  However, even as a relative new person to kit building I am still managing with them so they can't be too bad..

 

Thanks for that link Jim Snowdon, I had not seen your thread but it looks very very helpful!  also, your methods and modifications look great, possibly beyond my ability at the moment but I agree the tender sides and top where very tricky to work with and I wish I saw your build before I built my tender..  

 

I've only made small progress on the chassis as I've been working but it's given me time to plan the next few stages of the build - I will post up some proof of progress next week once there's something substantial to show, although after looking at Jim Snowdon's thread I don't think I'll have anything revolutionary to add!

 

I guess I feel just to complete the kit and had a smooth working engine will be a good accomplishment for me at this point.

 

Dale

[DaleT]

Hi again folks

 

I thought I'd post a update as I've managed to progress a little.

 

My goal/expectation for this build is to have a working engine that looks like a good impression of the real thing. I am still learning about this scale, and at the moment its kinda the hard way!  

 

Anyway I can provide a bit of useful information regarding the kit - especially in addition to Jim Snowdon's great thread (see above) about his build experience.

 

I am not trying to be negative or deter anyone from the kit, as I said before I'm relativity inexperienced but I'm doing OK so far, with limited tools (basic files, reamers, broach, jig and a block of wood etc).. I do feel though that more effort could have been made with the instructions and drawings as I find myself spending a lot of time figuring out and then having to plan each stage - and having to do things in an order contrary to the instructions etc... apart from a few new paragraphs I'd be willing to bet the instructions are the same as Jim Snowdon's in his thread.. 

 

the new coal engine chassis is basically a COAL TANK chassis, you have to cut the rear to the correct length for a COAL ENGINE and then use additional new rear chassis spacers.

 

 Also, the chassis then needs to be lengthened slightly at the front by attaching the front guard irons which act as an extension piece which are bent to support the front buffer.. however the fit of this with the front buffer wasn't right when aligned with the footplate, so basically some hacking of the rear of the white metal front buffer was required.. 

 

The kit comes with a new footplate and also provides the old one too.  The new footplate is the correct width of 7 foot and I noticed Jim Snowden had to correct this himself for his build.  However I had a moment of panic when after I had soldered the splashers and  cab front to the footplate I noticed there are no slots for the cab sides, which for a moment made me think I'd used the wrong footplate as the drawings use the old footplate, which does have slots!

 

Once I realised I could carry on with out slots for the cab side and the world wasn't going to end, I noticed the cab sides (as in JS thread) also do not have fold lines and I think are just literally shortened cab sides from the COAL TANK kit as they where slightly different lengths.

 

The kit comes with a new cab front and cab roof, again for the correct scale footplate.  Although you still get all the old parts too, and even a rigid chassis option for the tender.. 

 

Thanks to Jim Snowden's thread I could study his pictures and get the cab sides looking OK but it was quite tricky and could have been so much easier if they just had fold lines!

 

Also the backhead is for the COAL TANK and doesn't fit, but you get some nice brass castings, so that's another thing I'll have to figure out as I go.. again I don't have a great many tools so we'll see.. I used some scrap brass to secure the boiler at the correct diameter, but again JS does a stellar job with his..

 

SO once I get the boiler on (which really I think has been unnecessarily tricky) I can see how the motor will sit in the chassis and hopefully get it moving..

 

I may look at RC control as another hobby of mine is RC car racing and I like the idea of it, but we'll see..

 

That's enough moaning for now, the main thing is it's progressing so I'm happy enough..

 

Dale

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

Dale,

 

I'm glad to know my efforts with this kit's parent have been worthwhile. It is going to be interesting to see what got corrected between it and the kit that Mercian now sell.

 

Regards,

 

Jim

[Focalplane]

Hi again folks

 

I thought I'd post a update as I've managed to progress a little.

 

My goal/expectation for this build is to have a working engine that looks like a good impression of the real thing. I am still learning about this scale, and at the moment its kinda the hard way!  

 

Anyway I can provide a bit of useful information regarding the kit - especially in addition to Jim Snowdon's great thread (see above) about his build experience.

 

I am not trying to be negative or deter anyone from the kit, as I said before I'm relativity inexperienced but I'm doing OK so far, with limited tools (basic files, reamers, broach, jig and a block of wood etc).. I do feel though that more effort could have been made with the instructions and drawings as I find myself spending a lot of time figuring out and then having to plan each stage - and having to do things in an order contrary to the instructions etc... apart from a few new paragraphs I'd be willing to bet the instructions are the same as Jim Snowdon's in his thread.. 

 

the new coal engine chassis is basically a COAL TANK chassis, you have to cut the rear to the correct length for a COAL ENGINE and then use additional new rear chassis spacers.

 

 Also, the chassis then needs to be lengthened slightly at the front by attaching the front guard irons which act as an extension piece which are bent to support the front buffer.. however the fit of this with the front buffer wasn't right when aligned with the footplate, so basically some hacking of the rear of the white metal front buffer was required.. 

 

The kit comes with a new footplate and also provides the old one too.  The new footplate is the correct width of 7 foot and I noticed Jim Snowden had to correct this himself for his build.  However I had a moment of panic when after I had soldered the splashers and  cab front to the footplate I noticed there are no slots for the cab sides, which for a moment made me think I'd used the wrong footplate as the drawings use the old footplate, which does have slots!

 

Once I realised I could carry on with out slots for the cab side and the world wasn't going to end, I noticed the cab sides (as in JS thread) also do not have fold lines and I think are just literally shortened cab sides from the COAL TANK kit as they where slightly different lengths.

 

The kit comes with a new cab front and cab roof, again for the correct scale footplate.  Although you still get all the old parts too, and even a rigid chassis option for the tender.. 

 

Thanks to Jim Snowden's thread I could study his pictures and get the cab sides looking OK but it was quite tricky and could have been so much easier if they just had fold lines!

 

Also the backhead is for the COAL TANK and doesn't fit, but you get some nice brass castings, so that's another thing I'll have to figure out as I go.. again I don't have a great many tools so we'll see.. I used some scrap brass to secure the boiler at the correct diameter, but again JS does a stellar job with his..

 

SO once I get the boiler on (which really I think has been unnecessarily tricky) I can see how the motor will sit in the chassis and hopefully get it moving..

 

I may look at RC control as another hobby of mine is RC car racing and I like the idea of it, but we'll see..

 

That's enough moaning for now, the main thing is it's progressing so I'm happy enough..

 

Dale

 

20170726_183406.jpg

 

20170726_183810.jpg

 

I am most impressed with your descriptions and how you are tackling this kit.  Your lack of criticism is most commendable at this stage of the build.  Having a positive attitude can be most helpful.

 

Keep up the good work!  Paul

[DaleT]

Thanks for the comments chaps..

 

I just wondered if anyone could give me a couple pointers with these rods.. they need a little more filing but I'm going to wait until I've laminated them together..

 

I'm assuming that the tiny hole in the rods at the half way point acts as a moving part so the rods are not completely solid across the entire loco length?

 

 if so what is supposed to go through the hole?  a small screw perhaps?  the instructions do not indicate anything and I've looked though the parts I have but can not see anything which looks like it may fit through the hole there..

 

 

The small circles (part 26) in the fret and the parts my file is pointing to are labelled as overlays, are these absolutely needed?

 

thanks,

Dale

 

[daifly]

I just wondered if anyone could give me a couple pointers with these rods.. they need a little more filing but I'm going to wait until I've laminated them together..

 

I'm assuming that the tiny hole in the rods at the half way point acts as a moving part so the rods are not completely solid across the entire loco length?

 

 if so what is supposed to go through the hole?  a small screw perhaps?  the instructions do not indicate anything and I've looked though the parts I have but can not see anything which looks like it may fit through the hole there..

 

The small circles (part 26) in the fret and the parts my file is pointing to are labelled as overlays, are these absolutely needed?

 

Dale

With respect, if you have to ask these questions, I suspect that you haven't looked at enough photos of the prototype where all will be revealed!

Dave

Edited July 27, 2017 by daifly

[DaleT]

fortunately for myself I think I have now answered my own question...  I have saved many pictures of the real loco even before I bought the kit, but it doesn't mean I know how it goes together, it just means I know what it should look like.

 

Dale

[Crewe North]

It might be helpful , if you haven't already got a copy, to track down, beg , borrow or 'steal' a copy of Ted Talbot's 'Illustated history of LNWR engines' . It does occasionally appear on Ebay or perhaps your local library can obtain it, either way it's a must have book for the LNW modeller.

With regard to the Coal engine the book has photos and '4mm' drawing of the beast which unfortunately shows that the footplate only just overlaps the rear edge of the bufferbeam and doesn't continue right to the front . I only mention this in the hope that the part can be unsoldered so that it can be moved to its proper place.

 

John

[Crewe North]

P M sent

 

John

[DaleT]

Thanks again Crewe North

 

The picture of the model on the kits box actually has this error too - lesson learned!

 

I will sort it 

 

Dale

[jim.snowdon]

Dale,

 

I found it fortunate that there are quite a few photographs on the internet showing parts of the surviving Coal Tank that the usual photographers of trains miss.

 

What era are you modelling? I built mine as one the of 3 dozen or so that survived into BR ownership and, if it helps, can send you copies of the photographs I managed to find of Coal Engines in their final condition.

 

Regards,

 

Jim

[DaleT]

Dale,

 

I found it fortunate that there are quite a few photographs on the internet showing parts of the surviving Coal Tank that the usual photographers of trains miss.

 

What era are you modelling? I built mine as one the of 3 dozen or so that survived into BR ownership and, if it helps, can send you copies of the photographs I managed to find of Coal Engines in their final condition.

 

Regards,

 

Jim

 

Hi again, absolutely, any pictures you are willing to share of the loco would be very much appreciated..

 

At first I thought about a ROD engine as WW1 Centenary etc however I think long term for my general modelling interests a late LMS/ early BR period would keep me happiest as I like the green diesels too..  

 

I know not many of these engines even got their BR numbers - the last allocation of them at the shed that was near my home was in 1926, and there is no mention of them in the 1936 allocation, so even the LMS didn't bother with them around these parts etc

 

I could have got a 4F or (god forbid) a WD Austerity which also used to rumble up and down the old lines in my area, but I just liked the simple workmanlike look of the Coal Engine..

 

Therefore I intended to use the later Bowen Cooke brakes on the engine, which I think have been slightly updated with a bit of detail.

 

Dale

Edited July 28, 2017 by DaleT

[Simond]

Jim might have a more positive view of the Austerity...