GWR Rolling Stock for the 1930s

[Siberian Snooper]

Evening guys,

Thanks for all the help and support - i printed a copy of your responses off and popped round to see my mate this afternoon - as he said it makes for truly fascinating reading, and he's kept the print out for reference, and to read an inwardly digest again! OH - and has asked me to thank everyone for their input.  He has the GWR in the 1930s around Bristol book along with a couple of Middleton Press titles for Cornish lines/branches, but is going to look for some of the others that have been mentioned

 

He's fairly sure he's going to go 7mm - he is lucky in having an external building bigger than my garage! So as he says looking at the models, they just have a better sense of realism being a bigger model.  Somebody asked about area, and he likes the addition of the China Clay traffic to the general freight operations, so positioning will be somewhere around Lostwitheal/St Blazey area - I can see plenty of clay hoods coming up here!  I think some of the wagons dated back to the 30s, going of something i read a while back.

 

There are a couple of queries that he has having read it all:

a) When did the last timber viaduct go in Cornwall?  We think it would probably have been more on a branch line than a mainline, but I have a feeling (possibly wrongly) that a couple survived into the late 1920s?

 

b) Were there any slip coach workings in Cornwall at all, at that time?  Or any workings where a slip coach would have been conveyed within the consist, but not used as a slip?

 

c) We looked at the Worsley Works site and he noted there was a kit for a TPO, so im guessing there were a Paddington and/or Bristol to Penzance working(s)?

 

d) Mention has been made about CrossCountry workings - presumably these would have been re-engined at Worcester or Bristol, so Midland engines would never have reached that far south?  How many cross-country workings were there back in the 1930s?

 

e) Does anyone know where timetable information for this period could be researched?

 

On behalf of both of us, thanks ever so much.

 

Richie

There won't be any clay hoods as they did not come in until after steam was gone. 5 plank end door opens mostly to diag O13 for the Great Western period.

 

Worsley Works, may be able too do 7mm versions of the 4mm etches.

[Adrian Wintle]

I'd be rather surprised if the nearly 40-year-old 50' arc roof LNWR corridor carriages represented by the Ratio kits would be used on these long-distance workings. More likely 57' elliptical-roofed stock from shortly before the grouping - only 15-20 years old. What's tricky is to get the corridor thirds which I expect would dominate these formations, without resorting to the Hornby Staniers (aka Period III, from 1932). Could try marrying the compartment end of a Bachmann brake third with the third class end of a composite (these are Period I, coaches built in large numbers 1923-30-ish, dominating the LMS corridor scene in the mid-30s). Short of brass kit building, could use Comet brass sides on donor Depol (ex-Airfix) Staniers. But beware, right up to the war many of the panelled Period I and ex-LNWR coaches would still be in the fully-lined LMS livery. I think we can be pretty confident that no LNWR carriage used on these services would still be in LNWR livery 12 years after grouping.

 

EDIT: These comments relate to 4 mm. For 7 mm, there's plenty to keep the soldering iron hot for.

 

There is photographic evidence of the 50' arc-roof coaches in GWR trains in the '30s.

 

Adrian

[Richie Kynaston]

There won't be any clay hoods as they did not come in until after steam was gone. 5 plank end door opens mostly to diag O13 for the Great Western period.

 

Worsley Works, may be able too do 7mm versions of the 4mm etches.

 

Hi SS,

Ah! Thats a great point - thanks for that. I'd just assumed that the previous GWR wagons were similar to those built by BR in the 1950s.  Presumably they would have had some kind of tarpaulin over the same as the hoods?  Another area for my mate to do some checking up on!

 

Richie

[Adrian Wintle]

 

The last Brunel timber viaduct in Cornwall was Collegewood, on the Falmouth branch, replaced 1934 (?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall_Railway_viaducts#/media/File:Collegewood_viaduct.jpg

 

Slips to Falmouth were operated off the CRE:

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r017.html

 

TPO workings were to/from Penzance, not sure of details.

 

Cornwall was 'shared' between the GWR and the LSWR. There was little interworking between the two. I've never seen a pic of a Midland loco in Cornwall.

 

 

As far as I know, the Falmouth coach was dropped at Truro, not slipped. I don't believe there were any slip workings west of Exeter.

 

Adrian

[Compound2632]

There is photographic evidence of the 50' arc-roof coaches in GWR trains in the '30s.

 

Adrian

 

Well, I suppose the view must have been that a LNWR carriage of 1898 was superior to a GWR carriage of 1930. Probably true in both third (six-a-side not eight) and first class compartments!

[Adrian Wintle]

 

 

e) Does anyone know where timetable information for this period could be researched?

 

 

 

If you can find them, two useful books are:

 

Train Formations and Carriage Workings of the Great Western Railway by W.S.Becket. Published by Xpress Publishing (ISBN 1-901056-08-2). This covers the 1931/32 workings and has schedule extracts and descriptive text. Mainly concerned with main line trains.

 

Great Western Railway Programme of Working of Coaches in Through Trains (September 27th, 1937 to July 3rd, 1938) reprinted by Dragonwheel Books (ISBN 1-905014-53-8) in 2006. What it says on the tin, but out of print.

 

Adrian

[Adrian Wintle]

Well, I suppose the view must have been that a LNWR carriage of 1898 was superior to a GWR carriage of 1930. Probably true in both third (six-a-side not eight) and first class compartments!

 

Possibly , but they were in the LMS stock sections of the train. Probably the LMS attitude was 'if they are leaving our territory they can jolly well suffer'

 

Adrian

[Richie Kynaston]

If you can find them, two useful books are:

 

Train Formations and Carriage Workings of the Great Western Railway by W.S.Becket. Published by Xpress Publishing (ISBN 1-901056-08-2). This covers the 1931/32 workings and has schedule extracts and descriptive text. Mainly concerned with main line trains.

 

Great Western Railway Programme of Working of Coaches in Through Trains (September 27th, 1937 to July 3rd, 1938) reprinted by Dragonwheel Books (ISBN 1-905014-53-8) in 2006. What it says on the tin, but out of print.

 

Adrian

 

Thanks Adrian,

Both are listed with Amazon as unavailable (and no used copies listed), not showing at all on eBay or AbeBooks, so he will just have to keep his eyes open for them.  If anyone comes across a copy, please do let me know.

 

Cheers

Richie

[Miss Prism]

As far as I know, the Falmouth coach was dropped at Truro, not slipped. I don't believe there were any slip workings west of Exeter.

 

Yes, I think I was confusing 'Falmouth coupe' with 'Falmouth slip'. Thanks, Adrian.

[Edwardian]

There is photographic evidence of the 50' arc-roof coaches in GWR trains in the '30s.

 

Adrian

 

I believe so, but I would be interested to see a reference.

 

Soole pictured the 1.10pm ex-Crewe, which is a good example of what we have been talking about: GW Toplight Brake Composite, followed by 4 LMS coaches; ex-LNWR cove roof Brake Third, (same roof profile as the Ratio, albeit I think 57', rather than 50'),  then a pair of 57' ex-LNWR Toplights, then a Period II 12-wheel Diner (like the Hornby/Dapol one), then 3 GW coaches.

[Richie Kynaston]

One other little query that did come up this afternoon that I forgot to ask, a little unrelated to the rest of this thread, but was there a wagon works (for vehicle repairs) in Devon or Cornwall back in the 1930s?

 

Richie

[brianusa]

One other little query that did come up this afternoon that I forgot to ask, a little unrelated to the rest of this thread, but was there a wagon works (for vehicle repairs) in Devon or Cornwall back in the 1930s?

 

Richie

 

Wasn't David and Charles in the old Newton wagon works?

 

Brian.

[Richie Kynaston]

Wasn't David and Charles in the old Newton wagon works?

 

Brian.

 

Hi Brian,

It could have been but according to Wikipedia:-

"The company was founded in the market town of Newton Abbot, in Devon, England, on 1 April 1960 by David St John Thomas and Charles Hadfield. It first made its name publishing titles on Britain's canals and railways. In Newton Abbot, the company was based in the town's old railway station building and as the business expanded, the company took over the locomotive shed for use as a warehouse."

 

But logically, the works at Newton Abbot would have deal with wagons I suppose.

 

Richie

[Coach bogie]

Wasn't David and Charles in the old Newton wagon works?

 

Brian.

Yes they were with the Gresley coaches parked up outside, as seen in the far right of this image

 

http://trainsferriesbuses.co.uk/50newtonold.jpg

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Compound2632]

ex-LNWR cove roof Brake Third, (same roof profile as the Ratio, albeit I think 57', rather than 50'), 

 

Arc roof (a 50' corridor third per Ratio); cove roof; elliptical roof. The clerestory dining and sleeping carriages had two roof styles, both based on the cove roof profile: in the first style, the cove roof swept down to an arc roof profile at the end; in the second style, the cove profile was carried through to the end. A LNWR express could have an even more varied roof-line than a GWR express. (The example in the linked photo has: elliptical, clerestory (second style), elliptical, arc, cove, elliptical x 2.)

[Edwardian]

Arc roof (a 50' corridor third per Ratio); cove roof; elliptical roof. The clerestory dining and sleeping carriages had two roof styles, both based on the cove roof profile: in the first style, the cove roof swept down to an arc roof profile at the end; in the second style, the cove profile was carried through to the end. A LNWR express could have an even more varied roof-line than a GWR express. (The example in the linked photo has: elliptical, clerestory (second style), elliptical, arc, cove, elliptical x 2.)

 

Thanks, Compound, and apologies for the confusion on my part.  I do hope the 50' Arc roof coaches were still around in 1935, as I have 2 in LMS livery and I don't know what else I'd do with them!

Edited July 17, 2017 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

Thanks, Compound, and apologies for the confusion on my part.  I do hope the 50' Arc roof coaches were still around in 1935, as I have 2 in LMS livery!

 

The example in the linked photo was at Birmingham New Street on 6 Sept 1952. Spot the E-number - it was one of the carriages transferred to the M&GN in the 1930s and hence became LNER property, which means it's probably in LNER brown! On the LMS, the last survivors went in 1947. (I'm just re-hashing the Warwickshire Railways caption.) You'll be fine for 1935 but I would expect them to be fully-lined (!) as the simplified livery didn't come in until 1934 and black ends not until 1936. The first Stanier (Period III) carriages, along with flush-sided Period II carriages, had a version of full livery from new, per this preserved example. Despite the '1930s' being a popular modelling period, one simply doesn't see appropriately-liveried coaches on layouts...

 

EDIT in response to Edwardian's edit: very nice indeed.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

Postscript:

 

The example in the linked photo was at Birmingham New Street on 6 Sept 1952. Spot the E-number - it was one of the carriages transferred to the M&GN in the 1930s and hence became LNER property, which means it's probably in LNER brown! On the LMS, the last survivors went in 1947. (I'm just re-hashing the Warwickshire Railways caption.) You'll be fine for 1935 but I would expect them to be fully-lined (!) as the simplified livery didn't come in until 1934 and black ends not until 1936. The first Stanier (Period III) carriages, along with flush-sided Period II carriages, had a version of full livery from new, per this preserved example. Despite the '1930s' being a popular modelling period, one simply doesn't see appropriately-liveried coaches on layouts...

 

Thanks, that is most helpful

 

As I mentioned earlier, I, too, would expect the coaches on these North-West services to be still fully lined in 1935, and my pair are fully lined!

 

It was a small picture, but shows exactly why, with dulling down and weathering, it is often hard to discern lining on period photographs!

 

BTW, on the subject of published information, the OP's friend might be interested in the published loco allocations for 1934: https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/books/ISBN/0906867347.php

 

 

 

[Adrian Wintle]

I believe so, but I would be interested to see a reference.

 

Soole pictured the 1.10pm ex-Crewe, which is a good example of what we have been talking about: GW Toplight Brake Composite, followed by 4 LMS coaches; ex-LNWR cove roof Brake Third, (same roof profile as the Ratio, albeit I think 57', rather than 50'),  then a pair of 57' ex-LNWR Toplights, then a Period II 12-wheel Diner (like the Hornby/Dapol one), then 3 GW coaches.

 

The very first numbered picture in The Great Western Railway in the 1930s has a Dia.268 arc roof third as the first vehicle in the train.

 

Adrian

Edited July 17, 2017 by Adrian Wintle

[Compound2632]

The very first numbered picture in The Great Western Railway in the 1930s has a Dia.268 arc roof third as the first vehicle in the train.

 

Adrian

 

I stand corrected and reproved.

[Edwardian]

The very first numbered picture in The Great Western Railway in the 1930s has a Dia.268 arc roof third as the first vehicle in the train.

 

Adrian

 

Thanks, had a feeling I had seen one, but evidently memory had confused me as to exactly where!

 

EDIT: P.S. My 1930s stock had been built up over a 20-year period, on, but mostly, off, and, though there should be a good, and reasonably researched, reason for each item of rolling stock, I nowadays generally can't remember what it is! 

 

And memory can play tricks, for instance I evidently misremembered which of the LMS and LNER was the greatest contributor to the wagon pool. 

 

I cannot always recall and explain the reason why I did, or have, certain things!

Edited July 17, 2017 by Edwardian

[Richie Kynaston]

Thanks guys,

I must admit, its not my period, but I am finding it fascinating reading!  Im sure my mate will be very grateful - he's a modeller that likes to get things right, be it point rodding from a signal box or the right type of vehicles in a train, so all of this will be invaluable information for him.

 

The example in the linked photo was at Birmingham New Street on 6 Sept 1952. Spot the E-number - it was one of the carriages transferred to the M&GN in the 1930s and hence became LNER property, which means it's probably in LNER brown! On the LMS, the last survivors went in 1947. (I'm just re-hashing the Warwickshire Railways caption.) You'll be fine for 1935 but I would expect them to be fully-lined (!) as the simplified livery didn't come in until 1934 and black ends not until 1936. The first Stanier (Period III) carriages, along with flush-sided Period II carriages, had a version of full livery from new, per this preserved example. Despite the '1930s' being a popular modelling period, one simply doesn't see appropriately-liveried coaches on layouts...

 

EDIT in response to Edwardian's edit: very nice indeed.

 

Oh that preserved example at Kidderminster really looks superb!  The technical (if thats the right word) knowhow of how carriages were built and painted in those days really does exceed anything today.  The motive power technology has improved, but look at the new IEP trains and one of those I know which I'd rather travel in anyday ... and a clue - its not the IEP!  I had a chance to ride in the restored LMS coach at Peak Rail earlier in the summer and that looks simply amazing.  

 

Having seen that he could run things like that, my mate commented yesterday, that he's glad Midland stock made it into Great Western metals!  

 

Thanks again to everyone for your continued help.

 

Rich

[Richie Kynaston]

BTW, on the subject of published information, the OP's friend might be interested in the published loco allocations for 1934: https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/books/ISBN/0906867347.php

 

Thanks for that - i've passed it on to him.  While wandering around that site I also came across a series of three books entitled "GWR Goods Services" that appears to explain in detail how the GWR Goods system worked.  Has anyone seen these books at all?  Are they likely to provide additional information to my mate that could be useful?

 

Richie

[Edwardian]

 

Having seen that he could run things like that, my mate commented yesterday, that he's glad Midland stock made it into Great Western metals!  

 

 

If he likes, he might run something like this?

 

Checking the timetable, I think the restaurant car only went as far as Plymouth; I intend to run this on the Crewe-Penzance service, sandwiched between chocolate and cream coaches, which should set it off nicely.

 

It does show the faux panelling applied to the flush sides of a Period II vehicle.

[Richie Kynaston]

If he likes, he might run something like this?

 

Checking the timetable, I think the restaurant car only went as far as Plymouth; I intend to run this on the Crewe-Penzance service, sandwiched between chocolate and cream coaches, which should set it off nicely.

 

It does show the faux panelling applied to the flush sides of a Period II vehicle.

 

Where is the WOW button when you want it!  Superb modelling and painting.  I think if he saw that, restaurant service might have been extended to Penzance on one train a day!

 

Other than being an LMS Dining Car, can I ask what type/period/designation that is?

 

Richie