Is time relative or are clocks actually relative?

[How about a Dictator Loco Class?]

Anyone who is interested in relativity usually knows quite well how it is explained. But instead let's focus on an alternative idea that time isn't relative but is a constant. It's interesting to question things sometimes and see if there is a basis to defend an alternative odd view.

 

An analog clock's hands would move slower to a degree on Jupiter due to increased gravity and friction etc.

But has time slowed down or remained constant?

If even light can be affected by gravity, potentially atoms too could slow down, almost anything could be slowed including most types of time measuring devices.

 

If time is more like duration rather than velocity, then just because every moving thing may slow down in a certain environment, has time actually changed? Or actually just the speed things move has been affected?

 

Instead of driving 60miles at 60mph I can double my speed to 120mph and arrive in half the time. 60miles in 30 minutes. So I can change velocity or speed.

But if we maintain the same velocity neither accelerating or decelerating at all from 60mph (so no acceleration g forces or deceleration g forces) and somehow we halved the time instead of changing the speed you couldn't get there in half the time. You would surely have only gone half the distance?

I'm only interested in people that want to try having a bash at supporting this crazy idea.

And not in hearing the same old explications regurgitated by annoyed people and people who want to try look very wise and try show off their superior understanding.

This is just a little mess about and challenge.

Thank you! (-:

Edited July 20, 2017 by How about a Dictator Loco Class?

[Horsetan]

......I'm only interested in people that want to try having a bash at supporting this crazy idea.....

 

You could be oversubscribed!

[Joseph_Pestell]

I don't know anything about relativity. And not that much about astronomy either. But surely, our notion of time would not work on Jupiter anyway because the planet would be rotating at a different speed and taking a different amount of time to orbit the Sun?

[How about a Dictator Loco Class?]

I don't know anything about relativity. And not that much about astronomy either. But surely, our notion of time would not work on Jupiter anyway because the planet would be rotating at a different speed and taking a different amount of time to orbit the Sun?

 

Ok then what if it were possible to orbit nothing and have no movement. (Lets not focus on how this could be achieved) If some environment was setup under these theoretical conditions and then you could increased and decrease gravitational influence on mechanical clocks and all other forms of clocks. Would not the gravity increase slow the clocks?

 

We can move onto speed later!

It's also worth thinking about but it's good to break things down a bit.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Ok then what if it were possible to orbit nothing and have no movement. (Lets not focus on how this could be achieved) If some environment was setup under these theoretical conditions and then you could increased and decrease gravitational influence on mechanical clocks and all other forms of clocks. Would not the gravity increase slow the clocks?

 

We can move onto speed later!

It's also worth thinking about but it's good to break things down a bit.

That does not work either. If you are not orbiting something, gravity becomes infinite. Digital clocks would, presumably, continue to work as long as they has a power source, but any mechanical device would presumably not work at all.

[Horsetan]

....what if it were possible to orbit nothing and have no movement. (Lets not focus on how this could be achieved) If some environment was setup under these theoretical conditions and then you could increased and decrease gravitational influence on mechanical clocks and all other forms of clocks. Would not the gravity increase slow the clocks?

 

....or would time be said to stand still?

[Zomboid]

You can't keep speed/ velocity constant whilst messing with time, since speed is defined in terms of time.

And time is not a variable in gravity calculations, only mass and distance has any effect on gravity.

[Zomboid]

That does not work either. If you are not orbiting something, gravity becomes infinite.

Gravity can only become infinite when separation is zero

F=(Gm1m2)/(r^2), where G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 the masses of the objects and r is the separation.

Orbiting something means to be falling towards it under gravity, but having sufficient tangential velocity that you always miss and fall to the side.

[melmerby]

The answer is 42

 

Keith

[How about a Dictator Loco Class?]

You can't keep speed/ velocity constant whilst messing with time, since speed is defined in terms of time.

And time is not a variable in gravity calculations, only mass and distance has any effect on gravity.

Interesting points. Thank you!

Ok so if you start with a set speed/velocity which is defined in specific distance traveled over a specific time.

Then time is reduced, why would the g force then change?

I'm not trying to outsmart you. You know more than me. I'm trying to understand deeper. I appreciate your help!

Thanks!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Ok then what if it were possible to orbit nothing and have no movement. (Lets not focus on how this could be achieved)...

This is not possible within the present spacetime frame.

 

But if there was truly no relative movement, which is what you are asking for, then I suspect Horsetan's suggestion is correct, there's no time. Clocks would stop, there's nothing moving, not mechanism parts, electrons, photons, nada. You cannot just switch off 'some movement' selectively. It all moves, or it all doesn't move.

[4630]

In my space-time continuum, no matter which analogue or digital clock that I use, Saturdays and Sundays are always shorter than any other week day.

 

Mondays are always the longest day - especially Mondays in January. 

[How about a Dictator Loco Class?]

In my space-time continuum, no matter which analogue or digital clock that I use, Saturdays and Sundays are always shorter than any other week day.

 

Mondays are always the longest day - especially Mondays in January.

 

The earth is obviously nearer Jupiter and orbiting the sun faster on Mondays then!

[Horsetan]

.....Clocks would stop, there's nothing moving, not mechanism parts, electrons, photons, nada. You cannot just switch off 'some movement' selectively. It all moves, or it all doesn't move.

 

Even then there still wouldn't be enough time to build all those kits......

[Zomboid]

Interesting points. Thank you!

Ok so if you start with a set speed/velocity which is defined in specific distance traveled over a specific time.

Then time is reduced, why would the g force then change?

Gravity wouldn't be affected by that.

If you reduce the time taken to travel between two points, then you have either increased speed or reduced distance.

You can of course redefine what you mean by "an hour", but that's just the same as changing between miles and km, nothing in reality has changed.

[Classsix T]

It takes around 50 Mondays to orbit the Sun.

 

C6T.

[How about a Dictator Loco Class?]

This is not possible within the present spacetime frame.

 

But if there was truly no relative movement, which is what you are asking for, then I suspect Horsetan's suggestion is correct, there's no time. Clocks would stop, there's nothing moving, not mechanism parts, electrons, photons, nada. You cannot just switch off 'some movement' selectively. It all moves, or it all doesn't move.

This sounds like that question of if a tree fell in a forest and nobody was there to hear it, did it make a sound?

 

If every physical thing in the universe stopped moving for one year has time stopped or continued?

If every physical thing in the universe stopped moving except the earth rotated at its current rate for a day has time stopped?

Why do things have to move for time to elapse?

[chris p bacon]

This morning I put my socks on which have 'Thursday' printed on them.

 

When do I change to 'Friday' ones....

[Horsetan]

....If every physical thing in the universe stopped moving except the earth rotated at its current rate for a day has time stopped?...

 

I suspect you might have answered your own question on this one. If the planet is still rotating, can time really be said to have stopped even if everything else has?

 

This morning I put my socks on which have 'Thursday' printed on them.

 

When do I change to 'Friday' ones....

 

Of course, note that it doesn't say which Friday.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Horsetan

[ejstubbs]

time is not a variable in gravity calculations, only mass and distance has any effect on gravity.

 

Only in the Newtonian model.  Under General Relativity, "spacetime tells matter how to move; matter tells spacetime how to curve".  This is actually quite a good Wiki article if you skip over the higher maths; this bit is probably most pertinent to the question raised in the OP.

[TonyA]

Given that the world and everything I see is just a figment of my imagination, the only real time is my own. 

 

Tony

[Guy Rixon]

You might care to read about Barycentric Coordinate Time (TCB): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_Coordinate_Time. Note also the link in the first paragraph to the wikipedia page for gravitational time dilation. Working in space astronomy, I have to do conversions to and from TCB all the time. It's about as much fun as stabbing oneself in the face with a table knife.

 

Essentially, the time of observation of a distant event depends on where the observer is (because of light-travel time; observers nearer to the site of the event see it sooner); how fast the observer is moving (from the time effects of special relativity); and how deep in a gravity well the observer is (because of the time effects of general relativity). TCB is a common reference-frame to eliminate these differences and to make event timings inter-comparable.

[PatB]

I dunno about time being affected by gravity but I can attest from personal experience that it's definitely affected by terror .

[melmerby]

It takes around 50 Mondays to orbit the Sun.

 

C6T.

But how many Sundays!

 

Keith

[Classsix T]

But how many Sundays!

 

Keith

Never enough!

 

C6T.