BR diesel locomotive insignia

[rodent279]

Were class 20's the only mainline diesel locos to get carriage type BR roundels?

This is 20098, in original BR green, at Toddington yesterday, paired with 20137, also in green, but with full yellow ends, and post-1957 lion & wheel.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-XYsKXYhXM-anM5SFVrRU1zZmM/view?usp=drivesdk

Edited July 30, 2017 by rodent279

[Holmesfeldian]

Warships and Westerns carried them also

[D826]

Nope

 

Warships and Western diesels had them too.

 

Matt W

[jim.snowdon]

The Westerns and the class 14s were also given the "carriage" version of the BR logo.

 

Jim

[SRman]

In addition to the WR locos mentioned above:

 

One or two class 33's received them, although not from when they were new. D6570 was one in green with full yellow ends, as modelled in OO by Heljan.

 

Class 73/0 electro-diesels were delivered new in green with coach stock roundels.

Edited July 31, 2017 by SRman

[rodent279]

Thanks all. Of course, class 14's, Warships & Westerns! I should have known!

 

Didn't know about the 73/0's & 33's though.

[The Johnster]

The 'AL' series of 25kv electric locos for the original Euston/Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool scheme had aluminium cast unicycling lions, as did D1000 Western Enterprise.  I mention this because it was used as a carriage stock symbol on early dmu and emu stock as well, though I accept is not the 'roundel' under discussion here.

[anroar53]

The 07s in green had them. (Don't know if they count though?)

[SRman]

The 07s in green had them. (Don't know if they count though?)

 

Perfectly correct; I didn't mention them as they aren't main line locos, whereas the 14s were. For completeness, though, it was certainly worth you mentioning them.

[SRman]

Model photos:
 

P_20190102_234344_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr
 

Class 73/0



P_20190309_121823_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

Class 52



P_20190101_173331_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

Class 42



P_20181227_113801_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

Class 33/0



P_20190101_171802_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

Class 14.

 

 

For fun, but really outside the scope of this discussion, I did a Hymek in a might-have-been maroon livery with grey skirts and the coach stock roundel.

Edited December 23, 2019 by SRman
Edited to reinstate photos from Flickr after Photobucket stopped working.

[Classsix T]

The 'AL' series of 25kv electric locos for the original Euston/Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool scheme had aluminium cast unicycling lions, as did D1000 Western Enterprise. I mention this because it was used as a carriage stock symbol on early dmu and emu stock as well, though I accept is not the 'roundel' under discussion here.

Ferret and Dartboard, to be pedantic. The monocycling lion being the 'early' British Railways emblem which AFAIK only appeared on pre D number shunters and mainline diesel prototypes..?

 

C6T.

[ColinK]

 For fun, but really outside the scope of this discussion, I did a Hymek in a might-have-been maroon livery with grey skirts and the coach stock roundel.

 

 

Now you've mentioned it, I hope you'll share some pics of it with us.

[SRman]

On 31/07/2017 at 22:17, ColinK said:

Now you've mentioned it, I hope you'll share some pics of it with us.

 

I deliberately didn't post a pic because I didn't want to hijack the discussion too far off the op's question, but since you asked so nicely ( ) here is the maroon Hymek as it might have appeared if the WR had continued its policy of painting the main line locos maroon and blue had not taken over when it did.

 

P_20190101_172715_vHDR_On by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

Edited December 23, 2019 by SRman

[jim.snowdon]

Ferret and Dartboard, to be pedantic. The monocycling lion being the 'early' British Railways emblem which AFAIK only appeared on pre D number shunters and mainline diesel prototypes..?

 

C6T.

The original BR logo, the hungry lion on a unicycle, not only appeared on every locomotive, but also on the motor coaches of electric multiple units, with the sole (?) exception of the three 5-BEL units, which were in Pullman Car Company llivery.

 

Jim

[The Johnster]

I believe the unicycling lion also featured on very early, 79xxx series numbered, dmu stock, and was correctly featured by Triang on their Metrocammell model. 

[rodent279]

 

I deliberately didn't post a pic because I didn't want to hijack the discussion too far off the op's question, but since you asked so nicely ( ) here is the maroon Hymek as it might have appeared if the WR had continued its policy of painting the main line locos maroon and blue had not taken over when it did.

 

 

I like it, and I don't think it's too far OT.

I'm into the esoteric, niche "pifflling trivia". I like transition diesel liveries, even though I'm not old enough to remember pre-TOPS diesels. Speculating about maroon Hymeks is perfectly fine. How about an HST with power cars in BR Green, stock in carmine & cream?

[The Johnster]

I like it, and I don't think it's too far OT.

I'm into the esoteric, niche "pifflling trivia". I like transition diesel liveries, even though I'm not old enough to remember pre-TOPS diesels. Speculating about maroon Hymeks is perfectly fine. How about an HST with power cars in BR Green, stock in carmine & cream?

 

Surely a HST would be regarded as a dmu, malachite/electric green with speed whiskers and white cab roofs?

 

No, I don't know how they'd have applied the speed whiskers either...

[SRman]

Surely a HST would be regarded as a dmu, malachite/electric green with speed whiskers and white cab roofs?

 

No, I don't know how they'd have applied the speed whiskers either...

 

Maybe swept back in a stripe along the sides, ending in a lightning flash on or near the grilles?

[rodent279]

Maybe swept back in a stripe along the sides, ending in a lightning flash on or near the grilles?

It's an intriguing thought. Come on, someone must have tried it!

[rodent279]

Surely a HST would be regarded as a dmu, malachite/electric green with speed whiskers and white cab roofs?

 

No, I don't know how they'd have applied the speed whiskers either...

Arguably they are not DMU's, because they do not run in multiple as units. Effectively, they are the same as two locos double heading, in multiple, except one is at either end of the train. Same applies to a class 91+Mk4/DVT rake. Because they do not run in multiple as units, they are not really EMU's, they are loco & coaches.

Pendos/Voyagers/Adelantes/Eurostars/TGVs however, can and do run in multiple as units, so are true DMU's/EMU's.

Edited August 3, 2017 by rodent279

[SRman]

I gave this some more thought, and I'm not sure how well this would look, but how about BR locomotive green up to the grille trailing edges (perhaps at the rakish angle of the original divide between yellow/blue and blue/grey). The band where the original blue ran around the cab front and along the sides would now be Sherwood green (as on the class 47s), ending at an angle before the side grilles. Past the grilles, joining the locomotive green at the angle described, the remaining sides and all mark 3 coaches in crimson and cream.

[frobisher]

Arguably they are not DMU's, because they do not run in multiple as units. Effectively, they are the same as two locos double heading, in multiple, except one is at either end of the train.

As built, BR categorised the sets as DMUs which would be sufficient justification for the livery.

 

The first generation DMUs were basically a bunch of vehicles that could be assembled in almost any order mixed between powered and unpowered ones, subject only to the limit of powered vehicles allowed by the multiple working control system. Now hopefully someone could confirm if the 43's have MU sockets on their front end under by the emergency coupling hatch as well as the rear, and what the limit of DMBs that can work in multiple is (I suspect it is just two...) as I do know that pairs of DMBs coupled back to back have been used as thunderbirds for failed HSTs in the past.

[SRman]

The definition of DMUs could be a little flexible in the past. As Paddy said, the HSTs were initially lumped in with DMUs. Likewise, the Blue Pullmans were counted as DMUs, even though only the 6-car WR sets could work in multiple, and even then, only after they were modified after their transfer to the WR.

[rodent279]

The definition of DMUs could be a little flexible in the past. As Paddy said, the HSTs were initially lumped in with DMUs. Likewise, the Blue Pullmans were counted as DMUs, even though only the 6-car WR sets could work in multiple, and even then, only after they were modified after their transfer to the WR.

I suppose the phrase Electric Unit or Diesel Unit would be more correct really. They are units, but not multiple units.

 

I'd be interested to know if two class 91 + Mk4 & DVT rakes could couple and work in multiple. I would imagine it's technically possible, but not permissible in normal service. Platforms would be too short at most stations for a start.

[45125]

As built, BR categorised the sets as DMUs which would be sufficient justification for the livery.

 

The first generation DMUs were basically a bunch of vehicles that could be assembled in almost any order mixed between powered and unpowered ones, subject only to the limit of powered vehicles allowed by the multiple working control system. Now hopefully someone could confirm if the 43's have MU sockets on their front end under by the emergency coupling hatch as well as the rear, and what the limit of DMBs that can work in multiple is (I suspect it is just two...) as I do know that pairs of DMBs coupled back to back have been used as thunderbirds for failed HSTs in the past.

 

The jumper socket under the nose end was removed some time ago and were disconnected in the very early eighties. Several power cars did work as in multi when on test when first built.