Anyone Interested in Ships

[MarkC]

6 minutes ago, Captain Cuttle said:

The Texas was going into dry dock but covid delayed that. Work is continuing to stabilise the ship and volunteers are working on all sorts of projects on the ship. The blisters were foam filled late last year.

That's good news for the old girl. Thanks for the link. Her hull will have more residual strength to withstand being towed than poor old QM, for sure.

 

I fancy that Lexington & Intrepid (ones I know - indeed I've visited the Lex) are probably at risk too.

 

Mark

[Captain Cuttle]

4 minutes ago, MarkC said:

That's good news for the old girl. Thanks for the link. Her hull will have more residual strength to withstand being towed than poor old QM, for sure.

 

I fancy that Lexington & Intrepid (ones I know - indeed I've visited the Lex) are probably at risk too.

 

Mark

They dry docked her in 1988, there is lot on Wikipedia, i remember the replacement steel wasnt thick enough or wrong spec? Its a huge project then you think of QM and years of neglect and the size of her. Dread to think what is going to happen. Then there is the big U and on a smaller scale The Falls of Clyde.

 

[MarkC]

8 minutes ago, Captain Cuttle said:

They dry docked her in 1988, there is lot on Wikipedia, i remember the replacement steel wasnt thick enough or wrong spec? Its a huge project then you think of QM and years of neglect and the size of her. Dread to think what is going to happen. Then there is the big U and on a smaller scale The Falls of Clyde.

 

Oh yes, the Big U. Another one very much 'at risk'. Just think how close Shieldhall came to being lost quite recently too - some of her frames required replacing before she could carry passengers again. The list goes on.

 

As far as QM is concerned, unless Disney pony up huge amounts of cash then I fear that her days are numbered.

 

Mark

[The Johnster]

Sadly, I think you’re right.  She’s probably too far gone to be moved and the only option AFAICS would be to build a big caisson around her, pump the water out slowly and let her settle on the bottom, and the pour in sufficient concrete to support her.  Acid in the concrete will then see her hull off below the waterline and further support work will then be needed.  By this time we will be looking at a building not a ship.   It would cost, and there would be little return; she has never generated enough income at Long Beach to be properly maintained and will become a black hole for money. 
 

The main interest in these art deco liners is in the interiors, which should IMHO be removed and reconstructed ashore along with anything else of any interest such as anything that survives of her main machinery.  The funnels should be retained as well; they are iconic and will serve to give visitors a sense of the awesome scale of this huge ship. 
 

A ship that is not maintained in a seagoing condition will deteriorate, even when attempts to conserve the material structure are extensive; look at the other remaining Blue Ribander, United States. 

[MarkC]

It's often said that ships would never deteriorate if their owners didn't have the temerity to put them in water & make them earn their keep...

 

But as we know, with the best will in the world, ships, cars, railway locomotives & rolling stock etc etc deteriorate, regardless of one's efforts to stop that. All one can do is minimise the deterioration rate, and that too costs, in money & labour.

 

That's reality, I'm afraid.

 

Mark

[Johann Marsbar]

The USS Olympia, currently in Philadelphia, is another preserved vessel under threat due to the condition of its hull. It hasn't been out of the water to have any work done since 1945 apparently...

 

[J. S. Bach]

I have been on the Texas and the Olympia; fascinating things. I asked about seeing the engine room on the Texas and a volunteer was found and we got quite a nice tour.

 

The USS Becuna  (SS-319) is interesting also and I suspect that it, too, will need some underwater attention someday soon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Becuna

 

Note that the admission ticket to visit the Maritime Museum, Becuna, and the Olympia also includes admission to the USS New Jersey (and the boat ride to and from) moored across the river and about a mile(?) upstream. The day that i visited, I did not have the time as I had some place to be early on.

 

I recently acquired a plastic ship model kit of the USS Oregon (BB-3), a ship with a very fascinating history including being part of Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet's around the world cruise. It is a shame that I no longer have the manual dexterity to assemble the kit; admittedly though, I got it mainly for the cover picture on the box (suitable for framing).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Oregon_(BB-3)

 

PS: SS-319 is not in its WW2 configuration, she was modernized in 1951 and served until 1969.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by J. S. Bach
To add some information.

[peach james]

At least both HMCS Haida and HMCS Sackville have been out of the water relatively recently, and had plating work done in both cases.  Sackville is small enough to go on the sincrolift in Halifax, and the dockyard has a lot of time/effort to support her.  Haida gets lots of support from HMCS Star (the Naval Reserve Unit in Hamilton), so they are in fair material condition as well.  Both are very lightly built...

James

[Bon Accord]

4 hours ago, MarkC said:

Ah, the joys of an ignorant media using big words they don't understand... There's not a lot of water under her keel.

 

She's quite possibly at risk of partially sinking at her moorings - the hull hasn't been touched below the waterline for over 50 years, iirc, & frankly I suspect that if someone were to try towing her to a drydock then she might well suffer structural failure. Her hull must be rotten in places. The hull of the late, lamented Manxman was well perforated, which is why she was broken up in the shed at Sunderland. It was just too costly to replate her, which is what was required. As one chap I knew who saw her before the gas axe teams rocked up put it - "I've seen fewer holes in a pair of lace knickers...". from memory, Turbinia's hull is quite well holed too - not that anyone is planning on putting her back in the water.

 

Our own HMS Belfast had a trip to the graving dock at Tilbury a few years ago for repairs & repainting - had it not been done then she might well be in danger too. I know that the USS Texas is pretty much beyond salvation too - I believe that the only way to save her will be to fill the basin she sits in with concrete before she sinks.

 

Ships cost money - lots of it - to preserve.

 

Mark

 

One of the many problems facing QM is simple stability. During the great rip out phase in Long Beach in the late 60s they removed all of her boilers, leaving only a few machinery compartments. These former boiler rooms have remained empty and otherwise uncared for, a consequence of the removed weight is that she's hogging.

Considering how much work has been done to her, removals/replacements, modifications, periodical painting etc then getting the naval architects in to work out just what is going on with her stability wise could well be a seriously time consuming and expensive exercise on it's own.

When she first arrived in Long Beach the naval shipyard was still active complete with large drydock; that has long since been closed and redeveloped and I think the nearest available dock is in San Diego.

As you say, her continued preservation will require some seriously deep pockets and assuming that is available her eventual removal and docking would be a real logistical headache.

I think the only way it could be done would be to tow a floating dock to Long Beach, moor it adjacent to her and then quickly transfer her in rather than risk towing her any distance. Whilst she could theoretically fit aboard one of the big semi-subs e.g. Boka Vanguard (it has carried bigger vessels), her structural vulnerability would surely make that a non starter.

[The Johnster]

A floating dock would lift her our of the water but there is the problem of getting it underneath her; I doubt she would survive even a short move to deeper water without serious problems.  A ship is designed to float in water (no sh*t, Sherlock) and the hull to withstand pressure from the outside, so when that pressure is removed as she comes out of the water or the water around her is removed, all sorts of stresses are put on to the structure, and QM's is in no state to be stressed, so lifting her out with the floating dock would be fraught to say the least.  Letting her settle where she is is pretty fraught as well, as the bottom will not be level and the likelihood of her breaking her back before support can be arranged is strong.  I don't like saying this, but I think she's a goner.

 

The stability problem could be addressed by ballasting her to equate to the removed boilers and equipment, but the ultimate deterioration cannot be stopped.  It is possible that what is left of Titanic will outlast her...  Sensible removal onshore of artifacts and structures (perhaps the bridge) will at least preserve something of her for future generations.  I'd like to see the main interior rooms, as much equipment as possible, and cabins from each class kept. 

[MarkC]

A floating dock brought nearby is probably the only way to get her dry.

 

However...

 

Given that she's hogging then even getting her onto the blocks without issue would be problematic - and that's before you consider whether her remaining inbuilt hull strength could take the transitional loads put on the hull during the phase from being waterborne to sitting on the blocks.

 

As said, she may well have gone too far to be saved intact now. Or, as the surgeon might say - the operation was a success, but the patient died...

 

Mark

[tomparryharry]

Seeing as the ship is slowly breaking up, it would be quite difficult to make a business case to preserve her 'as is'. After all, would you pay top whack to live in a 95 year old ship? I doubt it. That said, the furnishings are a considerable asset to the vessel. One way through that, would strip out the vessel of the public face assets, and remove the worn-out steel elements.  It's not beyond the whit of man to build a hotel  in the same proportions as QM, and restore the innards to the new building.  People would probably like to live in 1930's splendour, complete with the services that the 21st century can provide. 

 

Currently, PS Ryde is about to be finally broken up. The shell of the vessel is now so dangerous, that security fencing is firmly bolted to keep possible injuries away. I have a feeling that Con-Vid restrictions are the only thing keeping the bits together.

[MarkC]

12 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

Currently, PS Ryde is about to be finally broken up. The shell of the vessel is now so dangerous, that security fencing is firmly bolted to keep possible injuries away. I have a feeling that Con-Vid restrictions are the only thing keeping the bits together.

I'm surprised that she's lasted as long as she has, tbh.

 

Mark

[Captain Cuttle]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Seeing as the ship is slowly breaking up, it would be quite difficult to make a business case to preserve her 'as is'. After all, would you pay top whack to live in a 95 year old ship? I doubt it. That said, the furnishings are a considerable asset to the vessel. One way through that, would strip out the vessel of the public face assets, and remove the worn-out steel elements.  It's not beyond the whit of man to build a hotel  in the same proportions as QM, and restore the innards to the new building.  People would probably like to live in 1930's splendour, complete with the services that the 21st century can provide. 

 

Currently, PS Ryde is about to be finally broken up. The shell of the vessel is now so dangerous, that security fencing is firmly bolted to keep possible injuries away. I have a feeling that Con-Vid restrictions are the only thing keeping the bits together.

The Ryde saga has been going on for years hasnt it, am surprised it hasnt fallen in on itself.

[tomparryharry]

4 minutes ago, Captain Cuttle said:

The Ryde saga has been going on for years hasnt it, am surprised it hasnt fallen in on itself.

 

It has, actually. The wheelhouse & bridge have fallen forward and down. The IoW council wants it gone now.

[Captain Cuttle]

On 21/05/2021 at 21:15, tomparryharry said:

 

It has, actually. The wheelhouse & bridge have fallen forward and down. The IoW council wants it gone now.

The Falls of Clyde

 

http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2021/05/last-ditch-appeal-to-save-the-tall-ship-falls-of-clyde-from-scrapping-or-scuttling/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+OldSaltBlog+(Old+Salt+Blog)

[Johann Marsbar]

8 hours ago, Captain Cuttle said:

The Falls of Clyde

 

http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2021/05/last-ditch-appeal-to-save-the-tall-ship-falls-of-clyde-from-scrapping-or-scuttling/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+OldSaltBlog+(Old+Salt+Blog)

It looked rather better when I saw it in 2000....

 

 

 

[Captain Cuttle]

Like all of them, they need to come out of the water 

[The Johnster]

Which presents a whole set of new problems, as the structure is not designed to support it's own weight unless the hull is built to 'take the hard', which most ocean going vessels are not.  SS Great Britain has a quite complex system of support for it's hull, which is still in a very poor condition in places; you could easily poke your finger through on the starboard bow below the water line.  You will stress the structure in all sorts of ways especially if the vessel has to be moved while out of the water. 

 

Ship preservation makes locomotive preservation look cheap and easy, and the best way to do it is to keep the ship in an operating seaworthy condition as has been done with Waverley, Balmoral, and Shieldhall; it is terrifyingly expensive and needs a commercial operation supported by donations and volunteers to keep it going, and even then there are occasional serious outlays that have to be met such as Waverley's reconditioned engines (the big end knock before this was done made me wonder if you would know if she ran aground because the vibration would be less) and Shieldhall's recent work.  If you are comparing it with railway preservation, the comparison is probably entire railways like the SVR or Great Central rather than individual locomotives; it's quite a committment.  The thought of doing this with larger ships is off-putting, and of course the reason that the Queens were not preserved at the end of their service lives.  Falls of Clyde is probably too far gone for this approach. 

 

Any ship that is not used at sea and kept in a seaworthy condition inevitably deteriorates, afloat or dry docked.  Dry docking does not absolve you from the need for continued maintenance and spending, as the structure still deteriorates.  The rescue of Cutty Sark after her fire probably includes a large amount of restoration/conversation work that would have had to have been undertaken sooner or later anyway. 

 

Iron or steel hulled ships last well in fresh water, though, as do wooden ones in cold water where shipworm cannot get at them.  It might even be possible to refloat HMS Terror...

 

A badly maintained ship at sea will kill you.

Edited May 24, 2021 by The Johnster

[Captain Cuttle]

7 hours ago, Captain Cuttle said:

Like all of them, they need to come out of the water 

To be rebuilt i meant not out permanently.

[TT-Pete]

One Sunday afternoon sometime 1991 I was taking a photographic stroll down the old Salford Quays and found a shipyard/breakers with drydocks at the point where the Quays meet the Manchester Ship Canal (IIRC). No fence, no gatehouse, no staff -asolutely deserted. There's not a soul about so I wander around for a happy half hour or so.  I have no idea about the name of the yard, or anything about the ships in the photos. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by TT-Pete

[burgundy]

41 minutes ago, TT-Pete said:

One Sunday afternoon sometime 1991 I was taking a photographic stroll down the old Salford Quays and found a shipyard/breakers with drydocks at the point where the Quays meet the Manchester Ship Canal (IIRC). No fence, no gatehouse, no staff -asolutely deserted. There's not a soul about so I wander around for a happy half hour or so.  I have no idea about the name of the yard, or anything about the ships in the photos. 

 

 

 

 

 

Formerly HMS Bronington I think, sank at her moorings in Birkenhead in 2016. 

Another example of an unsuccessful attempt to preserve a ship without the necessary shedload of money. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, burgundy said:

Formerly HMS Bronington I think, sank at her moorings in Birkenhead in 2016. 

Another example of an unsuccessful attempt to preserve a ship without the necessary shedload of money. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

I visited the Wirral museum on the day it closed. Even then HMS Bronington was closed as it was too rotten to be safe.

 

All the best

 

Kat

[Bon Accord]

19 hours ago, TT-Pete said:

One Sunday afternoon sometime 1991 I was taking a photographic stroll down the old Salford Quays and found a shipyard/breakers with drydocks at the point where the Quays meet the Manchester Ship Canal (IIRC). No fence, no gatehouse, no staff -asolutely deserted. There's not a soul about so I wander around for a happy half hour or so.  I have no idea about the name of the yard, or anything about the ships in the photos. 

 

 

 

The ship to left is the former Caledonian Steam Packet /Calmac car ferry ARRAN of 1953, one of the pioneers of the type.

After becoming obsolete she was sold to be a nightclub in Dublin and then ended her days in Manchester.

[Kris]

Container ship on fire of Sri Lanker. All crew are safe though 2 are injured. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-57244173