Herrings of the GWR improved wagon red variety

[Miss Prism]

gwr.org fans know few bounds when it comes to seeking out the elusive 'GWR improved wagon red livery'. Following last year's specious Iron Mink episode, comprehensively debunked by K14, my correspondent has provided the following, concerning an ancient 1902-04 V5 Mink at the S&DJR Shillingstone Project.

 

A pound to a penny it's red oxide undercoat, and probably post-preservation, but interesting nevetheless.

 

I think this Mink was built around 1902-4? (DC brakes) and shows evidence of red paint applied directly to the wooden sides and clearly the ‘first coat’ application. Whether this was an undercoat or the original colour, later over-painted grey, is impossible to determine. The paint is heavily weathered, but one of the photos shows an area recently exposed by the removal of ironwork and it’s a dense red. I would be interested in comments from others!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Looks more like BR bauxite to me.

[Mikkel]

This is fun.
 

clearly the ‘first coat’ application

 
Playing along a little, that's a key question I suppose.
 
If it's not the first base coat, then where are the earlier coats? Did the GWR, BR or (more likely) the restoration team strip their vans and wagons down to the bare wood when repainting? Or was the van more or less rebuilt with new wood during restoration?
 
If it is the first base coat, then it would be at least 113 years old (the no. list in Atkins et al doesn't state the exact build date, the Vintage Carriage Trust pages say 1903). But there doesn't seem to be any sign of the other coats applied in that time, so they must have been removed during restoration in 1994. If that's what happened, then where is the base coat that the restoration team used? Would they really strip off all other layers of paint and then rely on a 113 year old base coat as their base coat?
 
Here's how the van looked when newly restored. Isn't there a logbook which describes the restoration actions?
 
Part of me would like to believe this is a real 1900s GWR base coat, but it doesn't seem logical. 

[Guy Rixon]

The red in the first photo is a very thin coat: we can see the wood grain through it, whereas the grey hides most of the grain. I would expect a old-school red-lead undercoat or top-coat to be thicker, ditto for a modern undercoat. I suspect that the red layer is not paint, but a wood-preserving stain. The red in the bottom photo looks like paint.

 

If the wood is treated with preservative stain, then my hand-waving guess is that it's modern. I'm not sure that the preservative was around c.1903.

 

I note that the grey coat was applied after the wagon fittings were put on, as witness the last photo.

[hmrspaul]

The red in the first photo is a very thin coat: we can see the wood grain through it, whereas the grey hides most of the grain. I would expect a old-school red-lead undercoat or top-coat to be thicker, ditto for a modern undercoat. I suspect that the red layer is not paint, but a wood-preserving stain. The red in the bottom photo looks like paint.

 

If the wood is treated with preservative stain, then my hand-waving guess is that it's modern. I'm not sure that the preservative was around c.1903.

 

I note that the grey coat was applied after the wagon fittings were put on, as witness the last photo.

This is an unfitted wagon? If so, BR would have painted it Freight stock red as an undercoat before a freight stock grey finish. They don't appear to have been taken in by the paint manufacturers selling them 'special' undercoat paint

[Edwardian]

gwr.org fans know few bounds when it comes to seeking out the elusive 'GWR improved wagon red livery'. Following last year's specious Iron Mink episode, comprehensively debunked by K14, my correspondent has provided the following, concerning an ancient 1902-04 V5 Mink at the S&DJR Shillingstone Project.

 

A pound to a penny it's red oxide undercoat, and probably post-preservation, but interesting nevetheless.

 

 

IMG_0940.jpg

IMG_0942.jpg

IMG_0943.jpg

 

I have rated this post "Informative/Useful" because there is no "Tantalising/Ambiguous" button!

[asmay2002]

If it's not the first base coat, then where are the earlier coats? Did the GWR, BR or (more likely) the restoration team strip their vans and wagons down to the bare wood when repainting? Or was the van more or less rebuilt with new wood during restoration?

 

 

The wood has probably been replaced several times during the van's life.  If you want original paint colour you need to look at the metal bits.

[57xx]

It just looks to me like a preservation undercoat with a thin layer of top coat. There are no intermediate layers that would have been applied over it's life, I can't see the red as being a 112 year old top coat.

[Il Grifone]

The van would have received several coats of paint and different liveries during its long life.

 

Red? Grey 25" lettering, Grey 16" lettering, small GW and BR grey There is no sign* of any of these, so it was either stripped completely and/or the wood replaced - the latter is certain at some time and probably more than once.

 

* There could be some BR grey on the metalwork, but it's probably dirt.