How would pick up and drop off frieght be shunted

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike,

 

The down loop siding you estimated could hold 10-12 wagons. Would this include the loco or just the wagons on there own?

 

I am putting together my Templot layout so am trying to get things there or there abouts in terms of scale to each other.

 

I give myself 10cm per wagon as a guide, so at the moment I have a loop length of around 1m. Although the down refuge was a lot longer I can only manager 1.3m but is long enough to hold a decent length train.

 

Thanks

 

Just wagons Chris.  It was clearly intended as a double ended siding accessible from either running line to allow traffic to be shunted 'across the road' and served no other purpose (except possibly being used to reverse/run round terminating short passenger trains on the Main Lines).  The fact that the Down Refuge Siding shows up on early maps makes it pretty clear to me that the loop siding was never intended for recessing freight trains (hence its standage is not given in the Sectional Appendix).

[Chris Dark]

Just wagons Chris.  It was clearly intended as a double ended siding accessible from either running line to allow traffic to be shunted 'across the road' and served no other purpose (except possibly being used to reverse/run round terminating short passenger trains on the Main Lines).  The fact that the Down Refuge Siding shows up on early maps makes it pretty clear to me that the loop siding was never intended for recessing freight trains (hence its standage is not given in the Sectional Appendix).

Thanks once again for you insight.

 

What is the sectional appendix?

[phil-b259]

What is the sectional appendix?

 

The sectional appendix is a document giving details of the line. It will show the track layout, permissible speeds, restrictions as to loco types, siding lengths and so on.

 

It does not give details of signals - that information is recorded on signalling plans / diagrams.

 

The modern day versions can be found here:- http://archive.nr.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?root=&dir=%5csectional%20appendix%5cSectional%20Appendix%20full%20PDF%20copies

[Chris Dark]

Thanks Phil

 

Do you know whether historic copies of these are available?

[phil-b259]

Thanks Phil

 

Do you know whether historic copies of these are available?

 

In paper format? possibly, I imagine they turn up on auction sites etc. Its one of those publications that pretty much all railway operating staff should have access to so their must have been a fair few copies about in the past. For a definite answer though i think we need a response from Mike or another of our Western specialists on the forum to give an idea where you might get hold of a copy.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Phil

 

Do you know whether historic copies of these are available?

 

Various folk offer them for sale on the 'net.  The best one for your purpose is the 1960 edition of the Bristol Division Sectional Appendix (the one I have been using for various information as it happens ).  The older GWR Sectional Appendices were very different from the 1960 BR version and don't appear t contain any information about the length of refuge sidings (I think it was probably in the Service Timetables back then - if anywhere).

 

I think I've probably given you most of the relevant information from the 1960 book in my posts but it might still be worth looking out for one.  I presume the GWR one would be Section 3 as that was the relevant Service Timetable Section.   GWR appendices did not include track layouts and neither did BR ones - just a basic list of running lines.

[chrisf]

Aha!  In the back of the 1957-58 Bristol passenger WTT I find:

 

Savernake LL: down refuge siding 40 wagons plus engine and brake van, up refuge siding 42 wagons plus engine and brake van.

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

WTTs and Sectional Appendices are worth having if you can get hold of them (online, shows, swapmeets) in their own right, as they make fascinating reading and are an unparalleled insight into working practices 'on the ground' as they happened.  You will almost be able to get a feel for how your layout would have been operated just by reading them!

[NWJ]

Thanks Phil

 

Do you know whether historic copies of these are available?

 There are copies of the Bristol District WTT for September 1958 - June 1959, June 1959 - September 1959 and September 1960 - June 1961 available on Michael Clemens site, http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=572 

You can find the sectional appendices in these online copies for these years.

 

Neil

[The Johnster]

Don't start reading them or the Appendices on a day you need to be doing anything; they are absolutely fascinating and will suck you in... 

[The Stationmaster]

 There are copies of the Bristol District WTT for September 1958 - June 1959, June 1959 - September 1959 and September 1960 - June 1961 available on Michael Clemens site, http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=572 

You can find the sectional appendices in these online copies for these years.

 

Neil

 

There are unfortunately no Sectional Appendices on Michael Clemens' site, or certainly none that I can find, although there might be some online elsewhere possibly.   The GWR ones are somewhat scrappily organised unfortunately and provided it fits the bill tfor anybody date wise the BR WR 1960 issue is probably the best starting point for the Western as the contents are far better organised, especially the Tables.

[Chris Dark]

Thanks to all for your contribution. I will take a look through these. Unfortunately for you knowledgable folk I will probably come back with a lot of questions

[Mark Saunders]

Form 1, otherwise known as 'Please explain', yes, formal disciplinary procedure.  The second most serious level of discipline after instant summary dismissal, you were allowed 2 of them and summarily dismissed on the 3rd, 3 strikes and out, no ifs no buts.  A very serious black mark on your record.

 

I had one, but it was withdrawn after my explanation of the situation.  When you'd had two, people tended to eye up your locker if it was in a good position, and few survived after that, having already established an unacceptable pattern of behaviour.

 

You needed a Final Warning but that was only valid for Four years!

[beast66606]

Chris,

 

This may be of interest ..

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=51.3676&lon=-1.6610&layers=168&right=BingHyb

 

You can scroll the maps and change the map series on the top left.

 

I find it very interesting.

[The Johnster]

Thanks to all for your contribution. I will take a look through these. Unfortunately for you knowledgable folk I will probably come back with a lot of questions

 

 

Ask away, Chris, we like questions.  We feel clever when we can answer them and when we can't, somebody else usually can and we learn something; win win!